Decoding "lady"

Pizzagirl · April 21, 2014, 11:15pm

“I have yet to notice how it is controversial anywhere in society for a man to be praised for fulfilling the standard-culture ideal of a man’s role, behaving the way a man should. For a man, knowing his place is a privilege, not a restriction. Things like that aren’t symmetrical between men and women.”

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by this? I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.
Is there really just one standard culture ideal of a man’s role? I could see quite a few archetypes, myself.

(And being a lady, this causes me to feel faint and need some smelling salts to revive myself.)

jym626 · April 21, 2014, 11:24pm

Do you have the vapors, PG?

JHS · April 21, 2014, 11:41pm

I happened on the following poems, published by Alice Duer Miller 99 years ago in Are Women People? A Book of Rhymes for Suffrage Times. They show that our great-grandparents (in some cases our great-great grandparents) understood the double edge of “Lady” very well:

The Gallant Sex

(A woman engineer has been dismissed by the Board of Education, under their new rule that women shall not attend high pressure boilers, although her work has been satisfactory and she holds a license to attend such boilers from the Police Department.)

Lady, dangers lurk in boilers,
Risks I could not let you face.
Men were meant to be the toilers,
Home, you know, is woman’s place.
Have no home? Well, is that so?
Still, it’s not my fault, you know.

Charming lady, work no more;
Fair you are and sweet as honey;
Work might make your fingers sore,
And, besides, I need the money.
Prithee rest,—or starve or rob—
Only let me have your job!

Partners

(“Our laws have not yet reached the point of holding that property which is the result of the husband’s earnings and the wife’s savings becomes their joint property… In this most important of all partnerships there is no partnership property.”—Recent decision of the New York Supreme Court.)

Lady, lovely lady, come and share
All my care;
Oh how gladly I will hurry
To confide my every worry
(And they’re very dark and drear)
In your ear.

Lady, share the praise I obtain
Now and again;
Though I’m shy, it doesn’t matter,
I will tell you how they flatter:
Every compliment I’ll share
Fair and square.

Lady, I my toil will divide
At your side;
I outside the home, you within;
You shall wash and cook and spin,
I’ll provide the flax and food,
If you’re good.

Partners, lady, we shall be,
You and me,
Partners in the highest sense
Looking for no recompense,
For, the savings that we make,
I shall take.

Pizzagirl · April 21, 2014, 11:48pm

OK, but at the risk of sounding obvious, it’s no longer 99 years ago. You don’t think that the meaning has evolved as roles have evolved?

Hunt · April 22, 2014, 1:08am

I would like to point out that language can vary from place to place without necessarily representing any real differences in attitudes.

atomom · April 22, 2014, 1:19am

I still say things like “that’s not ladylike” to my young daughters. 
They probably think that sitting up straight with your knees together when you’re wearing a dress at church is the main requirement of being a lady. A few other requirements: eat slowly and chew your food quietly, don’t call names/talk rudely (don’t say I HATE this, it sucks, shut up, you stupid idiot, etc.) never imitate the sounds of belches or passing gas.
I’m a midwesterner and I think “Hey, lady!” sounds rude. But in any other context, the word “lady” usually has positive connotations–just meaning that someone has good manners, is well groomed, speaks well. It could also just mean a female in general, “My neighbor, Mrs. Smith, is a nice lady.”
When people started calling me “ma’am” it made me feel old, but that was about 15 years ago. Occasionally a customer service person will still call me “MIss”–I can’t help thinking "Open your eyes, dear (are you blind?) I am far-- very far-- from being a “Miss.” I thought an older --like over 30–or married woman was a “ma’am.”
Not sure if “My Fair Lady” (I love that movie) has been mentioned–Prof. Higgins was going to turn Eliza into a “lady”–by teaching her to “speak proper an’ all.” "-- The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain. . . " If you can pronounce it correctly, then you’re a lady ;)

jym626 · April 22, 2014, 1:22am

Michelle Obama referred to her daughters as young ladies today. Perfectly acceptable.

actingmt · April 22, 2014, 2:50am

Not every girl is a young lady and not every boy is a young gentleman. The words have meaning are still very much in common usage. Note the above post. Young lady is used all the time around here. The first time I heard it my D was 11 and a neighbor noted that our girls were becoming young ladies. I think it’s nice.

“Good afternoon ladies,” is also a pretty common greeting when someone is trying very hard to be respectful.

Niquii77 · April 22, 2014, 2:52am

Or that’s how they great people.

shellz · April 22, 2014, 2:56am

I call my girlfriends “ladies” all the time. Some are more lady like than others, so in my world, it is just a word, it’s not meant to carry any emotional charge. I think society gets too hung up on semantics. Call a spade a spade, a lady a lady, and move on.

actingmt · April 22, 2014, 2:57am

Yeah, it’s formal and nice. But, I don’t think it happens socially that much. This would be in a shop or restaurant or something. A trained greeting.

cobrat · April 22, 2014, 3:44am

Here’s some examples of proper ladies during my college years:

<a href=“Hole - Doll Parts - YouTube”>Hole - Doll Parts - YouTube;

<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube;

<a href=“Alanis Morissette - Hand In My Pocket (lyrics) [HD] - YouTube”>Alanis Morissette - Hand In My Pocket (lyrics) [HD] - YouTube;

Great examples of gentlemanly conduct all boys should aspire to:

<a href=“Horrible Histories - Literally: The Viking Song - YouTube”>Horrible Histories - Literally: The Viking Song - YouTube;

<a href=“Fifteen Men (Bottle of Rum) - Original Version - YouTube”>Fifteen Men (Bottle of Rum) - Original Version - YouTube;

<a href=“Twisted Sister - We're Not Gonna Take it (Extended Version) (Official Music Video) - YouTube”>Twisted Sister - We're Not Gonna Take it (Extended Version) (Official Music Video) - YouTube;

<a href=“Donots - We're Not Gonna Take It (official video // 2002) - YouTube”>Donots - We're Not Gonna Take It (official video // 2002) - YouTube;

<a href=“The Clash - I Fought The Law - YouTube”>The Clash - I Fought The Law - YouTube;

<a href=“One Fine Day - Offspring - YouTube”>One Fine Day - Offspring - YouTube;

:D :D

Pizzagirl · April 22, 2014, 5:17am

“I’m a midwesterner and I think “Hey, lady!” sounds rude.”

I don’t think there is a situation in which “hey, lady!” doesn’t sound rude! “Miss” or “ma’am” seem to be better terms for getting a stranger’s attention.

JHS, would your wife be offended if she were dining with her female friends (would she not say girlfriends) and a waiter asked, “Ladies, can I tell you about today’s specials / bring you some wine / whatever”?

ignatius · April 22, 2014, 1:22pm

^^^ Hopefully the waiter (or is female) would be standing on the opposite side of the table as, according to JHS, his "wife might rip the nuts off of anyone who referred to her as a ‘lady.’ "

Hunt · April 22, 2014, 1:31pm

I would argue that the two following phrases are equally polite–just stated in different dialects:

“Excuse me, ma’am, but I think you may have left your purse in the restaurant.”
“Hey lady! You forgot your bag!”

megpmom · April 22, 2014, 2:32pm

Just move to England, and then you get called “madam” - which to me just sounds like a brothel owner! :)

Flossy · April 22, 2014, 2:37pm

“Hey lady, you forgot your bag,” would get a service person a good talking to in some ritzy establishments. As would referring to a gentleman as a guy. Context is everything,

alh · April 22, 2014, 4:08pm

My wife might rip the nuts off of anyone who referred to her as a “lady.”

This wasn’t such a shocking statement to me. I know plenty of women who might respond in the same way.

Although the image is pretty graphic, if someone believes labeling a woman as “lady” is the verbal equivalent of rendering her powerless, then I sympathize with the sentiment, which I assume to be hyperbole. Do we even have a word that means the same thing as “emasculating” when we describe women? A word we would all agree on?

I think Garland pretty much told me what I was wondering about. Thank you for breaking it down.

jym626 · April 22, 2014, 4:28pm

Defeminizing might be the equivalent word.

mamabear1234 · April 22, 2014, 4:40pm

I am not a lady as I interpret the word, and did not raise my daughters to be ladies. The things atomom listed on the previous page as ladylike are simply polite things I hope we teach our children of both genders. Is chewing food loudly with their mouths open OK for males?

I remember a few months ago when the NJ bridge construction issues were on the news a commentator referring to the mayor of one town as a ‘lady mayor’ as if somehow she was less than a male mayor. The word has a negative connotation to me, although I would not object vocally to being greeted as a group as ladies, and I wouldn’t rip anyone’s nuts off either.

Decoding "lady"

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