<p>Well I guess I think it’s rather damning that “ladies” is used as an insult in sports situations and no one objects.</p>
<p>PG: Children in the south never say “yes” or “no” without adding “ma’am” or “sir.” An adult would automatically respond, “yes, what?” Probably you understand the usage. But just in case. “Ma’am” can be used in the south to keep folks at arm’s length as well. This becomes pretty complicated when we aren’t talking about small children any more. Sometimes, even in the south, it becomes an insult.</p>
<p>@Pizzagirl, thanks for the elaboration on ma’am in the North. My daughter is in school in western NY and her friends have just told her it’s derogatory and not to use it at all. Of course, it’s so ingrained it’s like trying to remove “y’all” from her speech. </p>
<p>In NYC, calling someone lady can be meant in a generic sense or sarcastically depending on situational context.</p>
<p>One reason why “lady” isn’t used very much seems to be that lady can often be misinterpreted as being sarcastic or worse, you’re implying a woman is older than she actually is…a serious faux pax, especially for women under 50-something. </p>
<p>In some ways, its similar to how women over 17 tend to react when some oblivious folks tend to address them as “girls” and wonder why they take offense at implying they’re still immature children. </p>
<p>Also, as with “gentlemen”, lady has class privilege connotations that many in the north tend to be more sensitive to than old-school southerners or those pining for the days of unearned aristocratic privilege/dilettantism.</p>
<p>We refer to ourselves as ladies-- as in “lets do a ladies night” "or “anyone have to go to the ladies room”? Sometimes we call it a girls night, and it has nada, NOTHING to do with any implication as to whether one is over/under 18. I think its getting waaaay overanalyzed, and is more likely the tone, not the word, that evokes a different meaning. If someone yells “hey lady! Get outta my way” it takes on different meaning than “let me show the ladies to their seats”. </p>
<p>My DH was an officer in the military, and still calls people “sir” when there is no “ranking” system. Drives me a bit buggy.</p>
<p>Don’t see it too much of this practice among most military veterans. Only one I know who did that was that Vietnam Vet former drill sergeant and 20+ year Marine veteran from my old neighborhood. </p>
<p>This practice is also common among some old-school southerners and a few midwesterners I encountered from college who had southern origins. </p>
<p>I just regard that as a regional cultural practice. </p>
<p>What does annoy me is when a few from that group with authoritarian tendencies insist everyone address them the same way…even when they’re in a time period and area where this isn’t only not practiced, but widely considered an outmoded custom from a more class-conscious period/region of the country. </p>
<p>That nonsense about authority and women with fantasies of cotillions and white gloves reminds me of the expression" You are so full of poop your eyes are brown". </p>
<p>Using the term “sir” is, in his opinion, respectful. I personally find it at times out of place (and he doesn’t use it very often, but its an old habit) . So he and I agree to disagree on the rare occasion it pops up.
As for that other stuff about people waiting for the rise of the old aristocratic south down on the ol’ plantation, or whatever you alluded to, its bull hockey.</p>
<p>Since “lady” and “gentleman” have their origins in a completely different time and place, I think cobrat is rather on target than not. “Lady” is decoded in a way in Trollope’s The Duke’s Children Is an American lady, lady enough for a Duke’s son? We may think it has nothing to do how the word is used today. I don’t know that’s true.</p>
<p>“Also, as with “gentlemen”, lady has class privilege connotations that many in the north tend to be more sensitive to than old-school southerners or those pining for the days of unearned aristocratic privilege/dilettantism.”</p>
<p>No one’s “pining for days of unearned aristocratic privilege.” This uber-theme about “snotty people” and “aristocrats looking down their noses at everyone else” is your own invention. For some reason, you see lurking aristocrat wannabes everywhere. You bring it up constantly, and it has nothing to do with anything. </p>
<p>Cobrat persists in making negative commentary about people and groups with whom he has no personal experience. It gets really old. The historical origins of words was not what this thread is about.</p>
<p>What’s to decode? I have yet to notice how it is controversial anywhere in society for a man to be praised for fulfilling the standard-culture ideal of a man’s role, behaving the way a man should. For a man, knowing his place is a privilege, not a restriction. Things like that aren’t symmetrical between men and women.</p>
<p>There is very little mystique to a gentleman. No one is once, twice, three times a gentleman, and being straightforward doesn’t make a gentleman a tramp. When you are out on the town, it’s Gentlemen’s Night everywhere.</p>
<p>“There is a sense that the “lady” fulfills her assigned role (in other words., knows her place), which includes elements of subservience, sexual mystique, and separation from the rough and tumble of work and the marketplace (except, maybe, for “ladies of the night”).”</p>
<p>I think that was true once upon a time, but I do think the meaning has changed. A woman can be both a lady and a ball-buster (as the saying goes) at the same time. I also think of a lady as someone who holds her head up high when being attacked and doesn’t get down in the mud with her attackers.</p>
<p>To me, there is not a class connotation at all with “lady”. Rich white ladies can be very much not a “lady”, and poor minority women can definitely be a lady. My mom grew up on a tobacco farm without electricity, and she and her sisters were ladies with a wicked sense of humor. When Mom was in the nursing home, the nurses and aides all commented on how she treated them with respect and kindness, when many others did not. They referred to her often as a “lady”. It’s grounded in how you treat others, not in wealth.</p>
<p>Some of my friends find it just as off-putting as “lady.” If I understand them correctly, it is only a position of privilege that allows the expression of the ideal. </p>
<p>When we lived in Germany (Army brat here), we had some family friends whose kids (my age) used “ma’am” and “sir” constantly, so I tried it on and started using it with my parents. My mom did not approve! She preferred a polute “yes” or “no” and to used Mr./Mrs. last name if saying yes/no to other adults. However, when we first moved to the south in 1975 (9th grade), I got a LOT of flack from teachers because I didn’t say “yes ma’am” or “no ma’am” as the reflexive polite response. </p>
<p>The first time I was called “Ma’am” instead of “Miss” I felt I’d crossed the Rubicon and was officially old. That was at about age 30.</p>
<p>Another earworm: “this is the song that never ends… it just goes on and on my friend…” From Shari Lewis and Lambchop. Shari Lewis-- she was a lady (a classy broad). Not sure what lambchop was…</p>
<p>I do recall cringing the first time I got called “m’am”. But then again being called “miss” was equally cringe-worthy. And never ever got called “missy”. That sounds like a person is about to get a punishment- akin to being called by ones first and middle name by ones parents. You knew you were in trouble then. (you is generic, not directed at anyone)</p>