<p>I learned something (the hard way) yesterday about my community that really does not make sense to me. My youngest daughter was involved in an accident over the summer where she was the third car in a line up accident and was ticketed because she was the last car. Actually driver 2 had been on her cell phone and not paying attention and had hit car 1, causing damage. There was no damage to the rear of car 2 or to my daughter’s car. Our insurance company and the insurance company of car 2 split the bill (around $1000) and the file was closed. When I went to pay the ticket, I found that it could not be paid, but instead my daughter had to attend a mandatory day in court (not an excused absence from school and parent required to take day off to accompany her). When we get there, we find that she has been put in a delinquency diversion program!!! Over half of the kids there were there for alcohol offenses and curfew violations. One group of girls had been caught sneaking out at night, meeting boys and drinking alcohol. These girls were given a day of community service. One kid was driving on the wrong side of the road and got 4 hours of community service. My daughter, whose accident happened at 1 in the afternoon, and was just a routine fender bender was given two eight hour days of community service and sent to driver’s school. I heard her presentation to the hearing officer, and while she told him she did not necessarily think it was true that she “carelessly operated” a vehicle, she did not do it in an offensive manner. I have someone looking into why her punishment was so out of line when compared to the other infractions, but, of course, am suspicious that he punished her for not saying it was “true”. Meanwhile, I guess I am just venting and wondering if other communities have programs like this. My daughter (top student, first in her class, etc.) is really upset to be categorized as a “delinquent” because she had a traffic accident, and I have to agree with her. And to top it off, we have to pay the program $200 for the privilege of letting her do two days of community service!!!</p>
<p>Without knowing the state, the law seems out of whack.</p>
<p>There is usually little or no viable excuse for rearending another vehicle. It’s normally a function of not leaving ample room for stopping distance based on traffic, road conditions and speed. It can be caused by being propelled into the leading vehicle if your car is hit from behind as well. It can also be a conscious effort to avoid the lesser of two evils, hitting a car in lieu of a pedestrian or bicyclist for example.</p>
<p>I can see why she was ticketed. But to require community service for a minor traffic offense seems counterproductive. Seems a mandated defensive driving program would be more effective as a training tool or learning experience in how to avoid these types of accidents.</p>
<p>Just my $.02.</p>
<p>I agree that this is way out of line. However, our insurance agent lectured both my kids about this sort of accident. If you hit another car from behind, it is always your fault because you did not leave sufficient room to avoid an accident. You are supposed to be prepared that the driver in front of you will do something stupid, or just unexpected, like have to stop suddenly because an animal crosses in front of him/her. The really odd thing was that, for insurance purposes, if you are in a chain collision, you (your insurance) is responsible for the car you hit from behind, even if you were pushed by a vehicle behind you. No one ever talks about leaving a safe distance when you’re stopped. </p>
<p>Although how all this works in heavy traffic is beyond me. And I once had an elderly couple start backing up towards me on a 4-lane road (45 mph speed limit). Apparently, they had overshot their driverway by a block and were backing up to be able to turn into it. Honking didn’t get their attention and there was traffic in the other lane. Fortunately, I saw something stupid coming because of the way their were driving and was able to pull off onto the shoulder to avoid getting hit. I always wanted to ask someone who would have been at fault there if I had run into them from behind.</p>
<p>Both I and my daughter understood that legally, she was “at fault” because she hit someone from behind, even if she was responding to the sudden emergency in front of her. What bothers me is that my community put her into a program that is “an intervention program for juvenile offenders that provides youth with the opportunity for choosing a new direction by enhancing their accountability and competency levels.” Really, is a young person a juvenile offender whose life is off course because she had a traffic accident? It is hard for me to believe I am the first in my community who thought this was way too much punishment for the “crime.”</p>
<p>Unfortunately that is the way the system works in some states. I agree (and I was once a prosecutor in family court) that this is not an appropriate resolution. The diversion program is supposed to “divert” youngsters from taking a criminal life’s path by giving them a pass for something that would be deemed criminal in an adult. Do adults in your state get PTI (pre-trial intervention, the equivalent) for a fender bender? It sounds illogical to me.
Motor Vehicle violations, except for serious ones, are usually covered by different statutes, not criminal ones.</p>
<p>The punishment for a simple fender bender does sound harsh. Have there been previous minor incidences involving your daughter? If you live in a small community (as I do), the police are well aware of any small infractions or risky behaviors of the local kids. Could it be that the punishment was not solely based on the fender bender?</p>
<p>I don’t agree with either the ‘delinquency diversion’ sentence or the inconsistency in the punishment of the 2 days of service plus driving school.</p>
<p>It’s hard to say whether her statements regarding whether she carelessly operated her vehicle played into this but it sure could have.</p>
<p>Your D is incorrect in her conclusion as to her carelessness - she clearly was careless or she wouldn’t have hit the car from behind regardless of what the person in front of her did. She needs to come to terms with this so she’ll be less likely to have it happen to her in the future. </p>
<p>Is there any kind of appeals process? Maybe she can appeal and get a different person. This time, your D might want to show some humility and state that she actually wasn’t paying enough attention and should have avoided the accident. It can help make the hearing officer conclude that she knows what she did wrong, would be less likely to do it again, and therefore doesn’t need a lot of punishment.</p>
<p>I’ve never heard of a kid having to do a ‘delinquency diversion’ program around here for getting into a fender bender.</p>
<p>^^ I disagree. It is easy to hit someone from behind and not be “careless”. Yes, you should “allow proper distance”, but that rarely happens, and if everyone allowed the distance that would prevent all instances of these minor accidents, cars would be strung out for miles. It simply doesn’t happen. Yes, in a perfect world she would not have tapped this car from behind. I would not categorize it as "careless’'. I would call it unfortunate and I’m sure it was scary and disturbing to be involved even to this minor extent. The punishment is too harsh. That’s why we have the term “accident”.<br>
It continues to amaze me how little slack some of us are willing to cut others.</p>
<p>I think that the punishment is much too severe, also she is not a delinquent, yet she is being labeled as such. I would also be angry for being labeled a delinquent. Who would not be? I wonder whether she required an attorney for this. I have an additional question. Has she been put on probation as well and has she been assigned a case worker? I ask because she is in a program for delinquents! I don’t think that is proper, but I know that does not mean anything. Are there any other downsides to such a punishment and program? Is she required any additional driver’s ed classes, how much will her insurance premiums increase, etc?</p>
<p>
Well, the courts don’t seem to call it ‘unfortunate’ to the tune of lots of $$ this D is now responsible for. While her ‘sentence’ is harsh and over the top IMO, I do think it’s important the D recognizes that if she’d have left more room in front, left an ‘out’ to the side, or reacted more quickly, she wouldn’t have had to go through this so if she’s more cognizant of that in the future she may save herself from going through this again. I feel bad for the D but this is the learning process relative new drivers go through. I, like the OP, don’t understand why this would be characterized as a ‘delinquent’ type of act though.</p>
<p>Well, as a lawyer it won’t be the first time I’ve disagreed with the courts!</p>
<p>Thanks. I see that some understand my point, although I probably was not very clear. Every child in my community who gets a ticket is sent to this “delinquency diversion” program. The literature about the program talks about being off the track and getting back on the road and setting your life right, etc. My daughter is first in her class, works on the Obama campaign, raises money for Global poverty, student council officer, ya da (the purpose is not to brag about her, but to show she is by no means off track). This is a child who has the potential to make a tremendous impact on the world, and my community is calling her a delinquent. As MOWC says, why should having an accident constitute being a delinquent. I just think my community is way on the wrong track (not my daughter). And to give 1 day punishment to those who were drunk and violating curfew, but 2 days for a fender bender at noon just tops it off. Anyway, I view this not only as an aggravation for my family, but as a serious problem about the way my community views its youth.</p>
<p>^^ I agree.</p>
<p>MOWC - As a lawyer, have you heard of this ‘delinquent’ program elsewhere? It seems over the top for someone who had a fender bender or got a speeding ticket. Those aren’t the same ‘track’ as what one thinks of when they think ‘delinquent’.</p>
<p>I don’t have the kind of practice where I have much info on that kind of thing. (that would be much too practical) Unfortunately, my knowledge comes more from my own kid’s transgressions in various states. My kid had much worse offenses than tapping another car from the back. We did find that things vary quite a bit from state to state. One jurisdiction you can get probation for an offense for which you spend a night in jail in another jurisdiction. My mantra has been, “What part of states have a right to enforce their traffic laws don’t you understand?”</p>
<p>We live in a nation that incarcerates a far, far greater percentage of our population, and for a longer time, than ANY other country in the world. We live in a society where the government supplies the people with a canard of order by the public display of overly harsh punishment of anyone deemed to be an offender. </p>
<p>I.E., The public will be assuaged and thus kept in check by overly harsh penalties, (after all, it’s human nature to love a hanging). Thus giving the masses the impression that control is maintained while also delivering an accompanying warning to all. </p>
<p>Hey, it work for the Romans. And the Nazi’s. And the Soviets. And the Red Chinese. Etc,. Etc. Etc.</p>
<p>I think that what happened to your daughter is INSANE. Get a lawyer and fight it - please.</p>
<p>IN SoCal it would be impossible to leave enough space, every time a car would try to leave one car length for every 10 MPH, others would crowd in. Can you imagine going 70 on the freeway and seeing 7 car lengths between cars, even if you try other drivers will fill the void.</p>
<p>We’ve found that things can differ not only from state to state, but from county to county, and, like MOWC, I am speaking from personal experience. Were you given the opportunity to talk to a prosecutor/solicitor before the final decision was made re: the “punishment” for the ticket? That’s usually where you can try to negotiate, at least thats true here. Does your dau have to do the diversion program and community svc hrs and then go back to court? It is possible that getting an atty involved now might help, but we were told that that would be necessary only if we couldnt come to a reasonable conclusion when having the pretrial conference with the prosecutor. </p>
<p>We did some research and were told that most courts would want to see some defensive driving class (though probably, in our state, not the on-line one), so we had our s take that in advance of the court date and had the certificate with us when we went to court (note-- there are diffferent driving classes–we were advised to do the defensive driving one, which also can be sent in to your insu company and used to adjust your insurance rate-- kinda helps to defray a little bit of the increase that will likely be coming from the accident). Anyway, he took this documentation, along with the documentation of all the community service that he had already done, and for which he’d won awards. We also were fortunate to have a very nice affadavit from the person whose fender our son hit that her car was all fixed, she was fine and that there was no outstanding claim of any kind. This was all helpful in getting a very reasonable compromise with the prosecutor. Since the driving class (he had to pay $75 for that) was already done and they ultimately waived the additional community service (which they initially tried to give to him but waived it with our documentation of the # of hrs he’d already done), he just had to pay a fine (they definitely wanted their $$ – this particular county is hurtin’ for cash) and they gave him a reduced “general rules violation” that didnt go on his license nor get reported to the drivers bureau in any way, so from that standpoint his record is clear! We were happy and went on our merry way. If we hadn’t gotten a reasonable compromise (such as what you got slammed with) we would have requested a postponement and reset date in order to be represented by counsel. Fortunately we didnt have to do that. You might want to touch base with an atty who is familiar with your county’s traffic court and the judges there to see if there is still any opportunity to revisit your situation. Good luck!!!</p>
<p>I’ve hit people where it was definitely my fault and I didn’t even get a ticket. So the punishment does seem excessive. That said, it’s always your fault if you are the last in line and hit someone, unless you can find a witness that saw someone back into you. I do think your daughter should have admitted that she should have left more space between her car and the one in front of her.</p>
<p>I think there are 2 things your daughter can take from this experience. The law (no matter how unlucky your are to end up on the wrong side, nor how arbitrary) applies to everyone - she got the diversion package just like all other motor vehicle violators. Lesson 2, the punishment does not necessarily fit the crime, nor does it have to be consistent from person to person - another reason to take all precautions to stay on the right side of the law - sometimes you get the hangin’ judge.</p>
<p>I paid dearly (doubled insurance for 3 years) for a rear-ender that wasn’t my fault (even in the cop’s eyes, but he had no other way to write up the incident). Back in the day when a well-know pizza chain (don’t want to violate TOS rules by mentioning names) used to guarantee 30 minute delivery or its free, I just happened to rear-end one of those guys who was trying to beat the clock.</p>
<p>He was passing me on the right and decided that he was about to miss his left turn, so he slams on the brakes and cuts me off. Well I hit him of course.</p>
<p>So even when I point out to the cop that his skid marks start in the OTHER lane and end in my lane where the reminants of my head lights are lying on the ground, the cop tells me “Sorry, if he’d spun and you’d broadsided him, it would be his fault, but because you hit his rear end, its your fault.”</p>
<p>The worst part was that it was my first new car and I had only driven it 1100 miles. At least the guy ordering his pizza got it for free.</p>