Dentistry after Colgate

<p>I recently read about experiences of Colgate grads and how it affects the ability to get into grad school. Obviously it's up to the student to perform well - GPE & Entrance exams. A few thoughts come to mind:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If grade deflation is a known fact, wouldn't graduate schools have heard about this reputation as well thereby taking that into consideration or is it totally cut & dry? In other words, grades below X, get thrown out before looking at other factors?</p></li>
<li><p>What GPA is needed to get into dental school?</p></li>
<li><p>Is research as big a factor as getting into med school?</p></li>
<li><p>My son is a freshman, should he be enjoying the summer 2012 as a sleep away camp counselor or try to find some type of meaningful work. Same question with this upcoming long vacation in Dec/Jan. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>My son was accepted EDI and this was a reach for him so I didn't know how he would handle it. Looks like he will get B's in his 2nd level Chem class. Are A's mandatory in the sciences? He's also taking the 2nd level calc class based on AP credit but I think that will be another B.</p>

<p>Any advice/comments is appreciated.</p>

<p>Colgate Mom</p>

<p>Here is a site concerning the rise of grade inflation.</p>

<p>National</a> Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities</p>

<p>The question is will grade deflation hurt those student applying tp professional/graduate schools from Colgate?</p>

<p>A previous post from a top 10 medical school student who graduated from Colgate states that, </p>

<p>"I would actually argue that Colgate is not the place to go if you are pre-med/dent/vet". "</p>

<p>" Colgate WILL NOT compare to an A from a higher ranked and more prestigious school that suffers from grade inflation."</p>

<p>" Most profs talk about how great Colgate is, and how recognized--and sure, that's true in some circles. For medical schools, its some unheard of LAC.</p>

<p>This is interesting topic for those who plan on choosing a college to attend, as if they don't already have enough on their minds.</p>

<p>The "previous post" does not not sit well with me because, oddly and ironically enough, there is not enough science as the basis for its judgments or assessments.</p>

<p>There are suggestions that there is grade deflation at Colgate/inflation elsewhere and questions about Colgate's reputation, presumably in terms of certain larger universities. Fine. How about some data and perspective from both medical school admissions departments and Colgate's health careers advisors on specific cases and trends?</p>

<p>I don't imagine that anecdotal stuff is too terribly useful... Verifiable specific material within a tight framework directly from the source(s) is smarter and ultimately more productive and meaningful.</p>

<p>For its part, I am sure the relevant Colgate adminstrators would be happy to help.</p>

<p>Reposting prior comments - that's wasn't what I was looking for. I was looking for new comments based on actual experience of graduates who applied to dental school. Are there any that happen to read this posting???? </p>

<p>My son's freshman advisor is Tom Howard, not a science prof. but he also gets advice/direction from Julie Chanatry, his lab professor. I am trying to get an understanding from any readers out there based actual experience. This may be way too specific for this audience.</p>

<p>May I recommend that you please take this offline.</p>

<p>I don't understand. Why take this offline?</p>

<p>I was really hoping you would let this topic drop but since you have not done so, here is my response:</p>

<p>Part of the response to your question is in place already and you said it... "this answer may be too specific for this audience".</p>

<p>Do you expect your son's advisors to discuss your and your son's personal aspirations and needs here? </p>

<p>Offline means in the context of the way your parents would have preferred you dealt with your course of study when you went to college and when there was no internet- directly with the relevant parties and in private. Better yet, as a 70s alumnus and with all due respect, why don't you take a step back and allow your son to deal with his own future? After all, there is a limit to what parents can and should do in the spirit of supporting college-age students. Surely this thought has occured to you?</p>

<p>Markham said "Do you expect your son's advisors to discuss your and your son's personal aspirations and needs here?" Absolutely not. I didn't intend or expect my son's advisors to respond to my comments. I only mentioned their names for informational purposes only. </p>

<p>Again, I said "I was looking for NEW comments based on ACTUAL experience of (Colgate) graduates who applied to dental school. Are there any that happen to read this posting????" This was in response to reading numerous responses from actual Colgate grads who applied to med/vet school. (Refer to "why-colgate-only-rank-21"). I wasn't looking for or expecting advice from others such as yourself. Yes, as Markham repeated, I realize there may not be too many on this site.</p>

<p>Furthermore, Markham said, "why don't you take a step back and allow your son to deal with his own future?" My son is doing great all on his own and he knows his future is 100% up to him. My goal as a parent is to advice him and guide him. Honestly, if it wasn't for my involvement to date, he may not even have been at a Colgate freshman this year. </p>

<p>Up to know, I found this site to be very helpful and informative but your comments are out of line. I don't expect Markham to agree. If I knew how to delete all my comments/responses to date, I would do so.
Any Colgate dentists out there who want to share their experiences??</p>

<p>Too bad this got a little too personal. I also think that making specific references to particular professors goes a little far on a public website like this as does asking for academic counseling advice. This website is not for that purpose. It's a website visited by college applicants, not parents who need addtional counseling advice for their now-nearly adult children. Since it's for general college-related questions, and this thread is really asking for personal advice of the type you'd get personally from advisors, alums perhaps, and professors, you can understand the problem. It's a little like asking about which professors to avoid or which courses not to take or which fraternity is best or other such issues . . . </p>

<p>All I can offer is the advice that once a student is responsble for themselves (and if they're not responsble enough by the time they are in college something is wrong somewhere), they should be able to find out answers for themselves. The idea that has become so common today that parenting is guiding your children step by step right through their college years seems very bizarre to someone who enjoyed the freedom to make his own future back in the 1960s -- at Colgate and elsewhere. I really suggest leaving the issue of dental school and what grades are needed and so forth up to your child and their advisor, and take the results as they happen. </p>

<p>A little tangental, perhaps, but somewhat relevant is the fact that I roomed with four
(yes 4) pre-meds when I was at Colgate, and every one of them was self-motivated, got answers to questions they needed answers to, studied hard, and was responsible themselves for applying to med school. All became successful doctors. The idea that one of their parents would have supervised them through Colgate would have seemed beyond strange. In fact, the maturity they achieved by being left alone -- as all of use were -- by their parents is the very thing that made them grow up so that they were ready for med school. </p>

<p>I also have to disagree with the poster above who counsels against Colgate for pre-meds and pre-dents. That seems misleading to me. For one thing, that person neglects to mention that top graduate schools use a mathematical formula to re-align GPA's for admission purposes. Schools known as high grading schools can thus be compared to schools which are tougher grading schools. Colgate is a tougher grading school. I think we all agree on that. So Colgate grads have their GPA's weighted by some (I don't know how many) graduate programs. Unless that has been entirely abandoned, that is, and why should it have been? No grad school, particulary med and dental schools wants to admit students who got easy A's from weaker schools.</p>

<p>In one version of this list (published some years ago in the Wall Street Journal) Colgate was ranked above most of the Ivy schools in terms of academic toughness and it's "curve," if we can call it that, was a good deal higher. Graduate schools looking at graduates of Colgate with a mixture of A's and B's know they are looking at very bright, hard-working students. </p>

<p>And I'm not even mentioning the ironic juxtaposition of Colgate and "dental" school, I'd like to point out. Best of luck even if you don't take my advice which is to worry less and let the qualities of your child come out through their own efforts.</p>

<p>You are doing the same thing as Markham by commenting about my parental involvement and going off on a rather long tangent about grade inflation/deflation - after telling me this site should be limited to high school students applying to college. </p>

<p>I requested a response and comments from Colgate grads who applied to dental school to share their experiences in applying to dental school which I feel is relevant to this site. Clearly, parents have varying levels of interest and involvement. I certainly did not request any advice or comments related to proper parenting. I repeat - "my son is doing great all on his own and he knows his future is 100% up to him." I am sorry I specified professors in my post. It is not relevant and I don't think it can be deleted.</p>

<p>In response to your comment "I also have to disagree with the poster above who counsels against Colgate for pre-meds and pre-dents." Here's my unwanted advice to you & others, stop trying to sell the College every time you comment. You don't have to agree with everyone's comments. I appreciate the honestly and opinions by those who write about actual experience rather than simply comment how great Colgate is. Ironic that after telling me what's not supposed to be posted here, you go on to say: "Graduate schools looking at graduates of Colgate with a mixture of A's and B's know they are looking at very bright, hard-working students." No kidding.</p>

<p>Once again, "Any Colgate dentists out there who want to share their experiences?" If not or if my question is not relevant to this site, then there shouldn't be any response.</p>

<p>But my comments were actually not directed at you alone, but at the thread of comments.
You seem to be in the mood to pick a fight which sours this whole exchange. Yes, I did comment on what I think is over-involvement on your part. If you can't take the feedback, stay out of the forum. As I noted, this is not the proper place for personal academic inquiries or naming names. </p>

<p>Since Colgate has a long track record of getting good students into medical schools, I would assume getting into dental school would be at least as manageable. Perhaps someone at the university could help you answer this question? But what you seem to want is personal guidance from Colgate graduates who are now in dental school or graduated from one That this is a bit specific makes it pretty unlikely you'll get a lot, or perhaps any, answers on this forum. </p>

<p>This whole thread is very strange and your heated responses escalated the whole exchange unnecessarily.</p>

<p>As I said in a recent post, I always found this site to be extremely helpful and interesting. You as well as Markham have always responded favorabley to some of my prior threads even though I was NOT a high school student applying to Colgate (i.e. recommendations for hotels and restaurants for family visiting weekend). I think it was either you or Markham who once started your own post callled something like "How did freshman orientation go?". Obviously this was self serving & not "correct" for this forum according to you both unless the ONLY purpose of this forum is for Colgate parents/grads to sell Colgate to high school grads.</p>

<p>If you read my last post carefully, it clearly stated " I am sorry I specified professors in my prior post. It is not relevant and I don't think it can be deleted." So, I already agreed with you but you felt the need to bring it up again. I will also take it one step further that I shouldn't have specified my son's grades to date or released so much personal info. I was simply trying to show some background info. that looking back was not needed.</p>

<p>You went on to write, "But what you seem to want is personal guidance from Colgate graduates who are now in dental school or graduated from one That this is a bit specific makes it pretty unlikely you'll get a lot, or perhaps any, answers on this forum." I already clarified I am not looking for personal guidance at this point but simply "Any Colgate dentists out there who want to share their experiences?" My son is getting all the guidance he needs on his own and this request was for me not him. I also stated in a prior post that I don't expect there to be a huge response. I simply was asking for experiences to be shared by anyone who went throught the dental appplication process as opposed to comments like - I had 4 roomies who all got admitted into medical school or "Graduate schools looking at graduates of Colgate with a mixture of A's and B's know they are looking at very bright, hard-working students." </p>

<p>Once again "I am trying to get an understanding from any readers out there based ACTUAL experience. This may be way too specific for this audience." I repeat, any Colgate dentists out there who want to share their experiences or Colgate grads that applied to dental school that may not have been denied admittance?" If not or if my question is not relevant to you, then there shouldn't be any response at all!! By the way, I love Colgate as much as you do and don't enjoy anyone criticizing someone's personal views or opinions. Let's agree to disagree and please don't respond again!</p>

<p>While reading this thread, the term "helicopter parent" comes to mind.</p>

<p>Nice to see that my elders can sling insults at each other like the rest of us...</p>

<p>Anyway, at Markham--you commonly dole out advice from your experiences at Colgate. You don't back it up with data, but when I do the same, I get picked on because I disagree with you and ColgateDad? I spoke from my most recent experiences, trying to highlight the good and the bad because people asked me to. However, if you check out mdapplicants.com and look up applicants from Colgate vs. Michigan/Northwestern/UPenn you might get a better idea of how Colgate students fare in the admissions process. There are obvious sampling problems/bias, but as Colgate does not publish any data about alum acceptance rates and GPAs, I think this is the best I can provide you with. I will not crunch the limited data myself--but I don't see Colgate students doing as well as their peers from similarly ranked schools.</p>

<p>PS--Furthermore, if we do get this data [from Colgate] we will want to ask what caliber of schools were people accepted to? Do they count off-shore schools or DO schools as success stories? Do they fail to mention the people they dissuaded from applying (ranking them as poor applicants in their committee letters)? What about those weeded out by low GPAs? Just food for thought.</p>

<p>On a more lighthearted, offtopic note, the title of the thread is just so funny. Like its like the toothpaste brand Colgate and dentistry HARDEHARHAR. This joke died approximately 8 days ago. Proceed.</p>

<p>-------------------------------------------If it is to be, it is up to me.....</p>

<p>If only we all had a nickel for every time someone made this joke... :)</p>

<p>PS Saw another colgate alum at a halloween party this year--dressed as a tooth, it was pretty awesome.</p>

<p>Cadriethiel,</p>

<p>Thank you for mentioning this website which I had not read about in this thread. It can be a starting point for you to frame your views and, as an engaged alumnus/a and younger than I- a graduate of the 70s who majored in the humanities and social sciences- something to chew over with your former Colgate advisor and the health services advisory group.</p>

<p>It would be interesting and helpful for applicants and others to hear more from you as you reflect further about Colgate's strengths and areas you believe can be improved upon. </p>

<p>Good luck with your studies. As I recall you are in medical school now and embarking on an exciting time in your career.</p>

<p>wow there is a lot of irrelevant chatter on this thread. But regardless, this might not be too helpful but I am a current Colgate student who used to be pre-med. I did a lot of research on this because it was a bit disconcerting to hear about grade deflation, especially for applying to medical school. After a bit of research and knowledge from my friends, it has come to my attention that graduate school admissions officers do have a list of schools and their academic difficulties. I don't know about medical schools specifically but at law schools such as UC Berkeley or Stanford, they DO have a list and Colgate is ranked 4th from the top. I personally know people who have gone to the best medical schools(Johns Hopkins, Columbia to name a few) in the country and are doing just fine.</p>

<p>Hope this helps</p>

<p>You're correct. Grad schools don't treat every GPA as equal to every other GPA. </p>

<p>The 'Wall Street Journal' some years ago (at least ten, I think) published an article (which I still have a copy of) which showed the "multipliers" used by graduate school admissions officers at at least one top law school (UC Berkeley). They had determined that all GPA's were not equal (not exactly a surprise to most people), so to deal with this problem they raised or lowered GPA's of applicants to create what they thought was a more realistic comparison. </p>

<p>It was interesting to say the least to see how many otherwise well-known and well-respected colleges and universities, including the usual suspects in the Ivy League and elsewhere, were treated. Some were considered not as rigorous academically as you might have thought, and a few surprises were considered very rigorous. </p>

<p>The multiplier for Colgate was higher than many of the Ivies and other schools traditionally ranked very high. In this UC Berkeley system, schools ranked 79 and above had points added to applicants' GPA's while schools ranked below 72 had points deducted. Applicants from schools between 72-79 had no change made to their GPA. Swarthmore and Williams were ranked no. 1 and 2 (no surprise) as having the most rigorous academic grading. Colgate was ranked just below them at 88. </p>

<p>Here (in order) are all the top ranked schools, all of similar quality to Colgate. I'll leave out much lower ranked schools (often state universities) which included another 25 or 30 schools. Just to put the score range in perspective, the lowest ranked school with a 57.5 was Howard. So the range was from about 60-90:</p>

<p>Swarthmore 89.5
Williams 89.0
Carleton 88.9
COLGATE 88.0
Johns Hopkins 87.5
Chicago 87.0
Dartmouth 87.0
Wesleyan 87.0
Harvard 86.5
Cornell 86.0
Middlebury 86.0
Princeton 86.0
MIT 85.5
Haverford 85.0
Pomona 85.0
Virginia 85.0
Amherst 84.5
Vanderbilt 84.5
William and Mary 84.5
Reed 84.5
Bowdoin 83.5
Vasser 83.5
Tufts 83.5
Bryn Mawr 83.0
Oberlin 83.0
Pennsylvania 83.0
Hamilton 83.0
Rice 83.0
Yale 82.5
Brandeis 82.0
Northwestern 82.0
Colby 81.5
Michigan 81.5
Wash U. 81.0
Columbia 80.5
Stanford 80.5
Brown 80.0
Georgetown 80.0
Smith 80.0
Emory 79.5
UC Berkeley 78.5 (the makers of these rankings!)
UC San Diego 78.5</p>

<p>This means, of course, that high grades are not easy to come by at Colgate but it also means the grades you earn are well respected in graduate admissions departments. I don't have a link to the article, unfortunately, and I cannot vouch for this policy being in use today, but I don't see why it would have been abandoned. ONE IMPORTANT NOTE: I am very sure that some schools have risen or fallen compared to this ranking from a few years ago -- so I wouldn't use these rankings too literally.</p>

<p>In 1997 UC Berkeley's Boalt Hall School of Law
did a ranking of the toughest schools to get an "A".</p>

<p>Are they still ranking the schools accordingly?</p>

<p>The L.A. Times ran an article 7/16/97 "Grading the Grades:
All A's Are Not Created Equal "on how the admissions dept.
from UC Berkeley's Boalt Hall re-formulated the law school's
applicant's G.P.A. The formula ranked each college
according to how its students perform on the standardized
law board exam, the LSAT, and how common a certain
G.P.A. is at that school.</p>

<p>The following is UC Berkeley's rankings of toughest schools
to get an "A":</p>