What about aspects other than those? In what aspects other than job/career/pay after graduation do you see elite colleges as being more desirable than non-elite colleges? Or does eliteness of the college otherwise not matter to you? Assume that the choice is between elite and non-elite colleges that are affordable and which have good offerings in the student’s areas of academic interest.
How do people define elite? Universities/colleges with a sub-10% admission rate? With a good historical reputation nationally? Popular recognition?
I work at a non-elite college. I wanted for my own D a place where the vast majority of students care about learning (not just grades) , do the reading/work, and actually have some intellectual interests. These traits can’t be taken for granted where I work. I feel sorry for the good students there. (And there are some, believe me. They are there largely for economic or family reasons). The academic peer group matters. Elite colleges also have a lot of resources that can be used to support a student’s esoteric interests. At average colleges with average endowments, classes and disciplines aren’t offered unless they are popular or required.
Maybe not for everyone, but for some people, learning is pleasurable, and a life of the mind, with expert- or near-expert-level knowledge of at least one area and wide-ranging knowledge of others, is an ingredient in a pleasurable life.
(just to be clear: an “elite” diploma isn’t a prerequisite for a life of the mind. But it’s pretty awesome to be surrounded by smart, inquisitive people and guided by professors at the tops of their fields.)
^^I do know that I took the wind out of the UCB tour guide’s sails when he proudly announced, “There is only one public university in the US that has more books than we have here at Cal. Can anyone guess what public university library has the most?” Good Illini that I am, I was able to answer UIUC without hesitation! I think that was the first time anybody got the answer to his question on the first try.
This is what I’d describe as having a sufficiently large critical mass of academically engaged intellectual students at a given institution.
For some students, being one of only a handful or a tiny minority of such students on a given campus doesn’t make for a great academic/campus experience for them.
And while this isn’t limited to the most selective elite colleges, the mentality among some folks I’ve known…including older relatives that “all colleges are the same”* completely disregards this need among some academically engaged intellectual students.
This includes elite public colleges like Berkeley, UVA, UNC-CH, etc.
** IMO…equally as clueless as those who believe such environments are limited to the Ivies/top elites…especially HYPSMCC.
Again, elite is not defined.
Are you really asking if one college is pretty much the same as another? The answer is no. it’s hard to enjoy the life of the mind when 80% of your peers don’t even know what that means, and they don’t care. Learning is social.
There are many good things about elite private universities. There are many good things about public research universities. It is like some restaurants offer seafood, while others offer steak. Students, as the consumers of education, have different preferences toward different types of education. So desirability is individual-specific.
Having said so, elite private universities do on average spend more money on each student. As a result, amenities (say $250 million residential colleges housing for only 800 students) at elite private universities are mostly better. If elite private universities are also well endowed and can offer generous financial aids such that some students can spend less on elite private university education than on public research university education, this will make elite private university education look like a bargain.
Another desirable aspect of an elite/respectable college are the social opportunities/parties one can partake while on campus and post-undergrad.
Some of this, however, can be mitigated by being brave/foolhardy enough to crash some campus/alum parties and being good at faking charm long enough to grab all the food, spirits, and desserts while assigning someone to distract the actual party guests with conversation.
Public research universities (the flagships) are educationally “elite,” in my view. They remain the best bargain for the superior student on a budget (unless the student can get into a need-blind-admissions/meets-full-need institution, of which there are only about 60).
One more desirable aspect of the ultra-elite private colleges is they have very deep pockets and if you don’t have money many of them have tremendous FA packages (I speak from experience haha).
This is the first of what I imagine to be one of many random thoughts on my part.
I do think that one of the advantages of going to an “elite” college is that one is EXPECTED to be competent but there is also the assumption that fellow students are worthy competition. You’re not the best in the class, so you can’t slack off completely and still do well. But when you work hard and don’t do well, it’s not assumed that you’ve failed because you’re “not college material.” I know D has said things like, “That class isn’t easy, but we’re all smart here so we’ll figure it out.”
(Reminiscent of the apocryphal story about the elementary teacher who mistook locker numbers from 120-145 for IQ scores and produced a class that did uniformly well on all their standardized tests. Not a true story, I’m sure, but an illustrative tale about the power of expectation, work, and support.)
Bragging rights. Very important to one of my friends whose daughter attends an Ivy, especially now that her former boyfriend has taken a leave of absence from his Ivy.
You already know the answer, ucb, so I’m not sure why you are asking the question. Those of us who value an elite education (for reasons aside from “make more money”) value the experience of being with a group of bright young people and professors/resources. These are obviously “thicker” at elite colleges and go in shades of gray down to East Nowheresville State U.
And obviously the kinds of people who define “elite” as HYPSM or similar and think they could never find such an experience at, say, Tufts or USC or Rochester are too stupid and tiresome for words.
This has been discussed ad nauseum. What’s the new news you are trying to get at?
I earned my own degrees at “elite” universities, but have spent my career working at a middling state directional college. On the one hand, college students are college students, everywhere. On the other hand, there are significant differences. The very top students where I work are not all that different from top students at the elites, but the range of students is much, much greater where I am now. The biggest difference, though, is (I think) the level of ambition and the sense of possibilities that the students come with. In general, the students at “elite” institutions know that the world is theirs and that they can accomplish pretty much anything that they set their minds to. The students at “lesser” institutions don’t inherently know this, either because they are just not aware of it or because they actually think their opportunities are more limited (which then, of course, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).
It can be stimulating to be on a campus where everyone is bright and talented. But it can also affect self-esteem for some. Students may forget they are among an intellectually elite crowd and feel less competent, not more, in comparison. Also, the workload can be ridiculous: most successful students learn quickly that they cannot do all the reading.
Post-grad, if a job applicant or new hire comes from an elite, there may be jokes, and there certainly will be higher expectations of this new employee, which can be burdensome. And the boss may have gone to state U.
As for bragging rights, many grads of elite schools (at least schools like Harvard with huge name recognition) avoid mentioning they went there. The response to anyone saying they went to Harvard can be just plain embarrassing. “Wow you must be brilliant.” That kind of thing.
Finally, I would not assume that students at elites have deep intellectual interests. Many are career-focused just like students at other schools, but may have their sights set higher, for finance for instance.
I am a fan of some of the elites, Harvard included, but also love the Colleges that Change Lives schools and many others. I am not posting to negate the value of elites but to give another side to the story. There really are many very interesting peers at elite schools and the cross-pollination that happens can be wonderful. The rigors of the coursework can be wonderful too, if a student is really up to it. And a diverse group of lifelong friends from all over the world. So yeah, lots of benefits beyond either prestige or career.
I went to a college that’s one step down in terms of selectivity from Harvard/Yale/Princeton, and I have never had either of these experiences. I wonder whether they might be unique to graduates of a very few schools (possibly two or three others in addition to the three I just mentioned).
“@ucbalumnus Desirability (or not) of elite college OTHER THAN relating to job/career/pay after graduation”
Number one issue to me is peace of mind that if I were suddenly disappeared my kid is well taken care of and his education continues without the financial support that I work to provide. I also view an elite school as a super buffet restaurant where you can eat/try whatever in the world you want to. There are a few schools as close to that as we can get. Less post graduation concerns.
