<p>Maybe I am morally deficient, but I just don’t see that this issue turns this young man into Kenneth Lay. The A&M offer was NOT expected- he knew of some merit money but he didn’t know he would be given a full ride. As another lawyer here, even though it might be a breach of contract (which I will not concede because of the financial out) there is absolutely NO damage to Princeton if V goes to A&M (which is NOT “Texas”-there is a real distinction). With the ED yields amazingly lower than I would expect, it appears that this type of thing is not particularly unusual. Everybody has their price- I would not encourage one of my kids to give up Princeton for A&M, but I would look long and hard at a full ride (athletic or otherwise) from Duke or Colgate. I’m speaking from the perspective of someone who will not qualify for need-based money, but still has trouble with the price tags on these highly-selective schools.</p>
<p>kirmum - my point about Stanford is that colleges, such as Princeton, have chosen to perpetuate the situation patuxent referred to “The difference in the market knowledge of the consumer and the college in the coolege admissions and financial aid process is so profound as to render the whole thing fundamentally unfair. If it were to happen almost anywhere else we would be screaming for disclosure rules and consumer protection laws.”</p>
<p>We keep calling this a “contract” because that is what the ED colleges want us to call it, but I doubt that it would ever be held up as a valid contract. Have you ever seen the number and lengths of disclosures that we currently need to sign before we enter into, say, a real estate contract? The inequality of information and power in the situation between the two parties to this “contract” is profound.</p>
<p>Patuxent—you’re lament that it’s the middle class that gets the shaft clearly implied that the poor have it easier.</p>
<p>I’m just tired of the whiniing of the American upper middle class, which is wealthier than ninety-nine percent of the world.</p>
<p>kirmum, this isn’t a legal contract. 18% don’t go to their ED school after acceptance.
You know it isn’t a legal contract. As I understand it, nobody has ever been sued in the US for getting out of ED. You’re a lawyer, you know this. Princeton didn’t cancel his acceptance because they don’t have a problem with the applicant’s morals.</p>
<p>Even if it’s not a contract, it’s a moral obligation…He was supposed to withdraw from everywhere else when he got in pton, wasn’t he? </p>
<p>Also, the penalty is not damages in money to pton, but that other schools are not supposed to admit a scofflaw. If Texas AM heard about this they would NEVER let him in.</p>
<p>If not, what kind of ethics does TAM have??</p>
<p>These are the Aggies. They probably think they are SUPPOSED to go after kids who got in somewhere else ED! (only kidding) :)</p>
<p>"In the ordinary transactions of the marketplace, competition from rival producers limits how much a given business can charge its customers. In the academic world, however, organized collusion among some of the most expensive colleges has stripped the students and their parents of this consumer protection. Each spring, for 35 years, the Ivy League colleges, plus MIT, Amherst, Northwestern, and a dozen other colleges and universities, met to decide how much money they would charge, as a net price, to each individual student, out of more than 10,000 students who had applied to more than one institution in this cartel. The lists of students were compiled before the annual meetings, and officials from the various colleges decided how much money could be extracted from each individual, given parental income, bank-account balance, home equity, and other financial factors. Where their estimates differed, these differences were reconciled in the meetings and the student then received so-called financial-aid offers, which meant that the net cost of going to one college in the cartel would be the same as the net cost of going to another. </p>
<p>The U.S. Department of Justice began investigating these and other colleges in 1989. With a legal threat of antitrust prosecution by the government, and a class-action suit on behalf of students, hanging over this group of colleges, pending the outcome of the investigation, Yale and Barnard dropped out of the meetings in 1990, and in 1991 the meetings were canceled." - Thomas Sowell</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/sowell-tuition?embedded=yes&cumulative_category_title=Education&cumulative_category_id=Education[/url]”>http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/sowell-tuition?embedded=yes&cumulative_category_title=Education&cumulative_category_id=Education</a></p>
<p>If we are going to talk about ethics we really need to look at the ethics of the schools involved. ED was the answer to the consent decree the Ivy’s signed.</p>
<p>I don’t have firsthand knowledge of how Princeton handles these kind of situations when it seems that applicants are trying to play off a merit aid offer against a need-based one. However, I have heard directly from Harvard’s financial aid head that when Harvard admits try similar ploys, Harvard essentially responds, “The ball is in your court,” and let’s the student make up their mind. </p>
<p>Harvard is willing to review financial aid decisions if it seems that there are true need-based financial circumstances that the original need-based offer didn’t consider. Indeed, that happened to me when I applied to Harvard. After the review, Harvard gave me a better offer, which I very gratefully accepted. I still had to take out loans and work, and my mom still had to pay, but it was a very fair offer that I remain grateful for. Harvard won’t, though, up the aid for people who don’t want to feel any financial pressure when their kids go off to college. </p>
<p>Of course, Harvard doesn’t have binding ED, so the situation is a bit different with Valdez. I anticipate that Princeton will neither recalculate his aid nor will they put heavy pressure on him to honor his commiment. I also would bet that Princeton financial aid and adcoms have found his posts here, and now that they have gotten to know him better, will not be upset if he decides to accept A&M’s offer. </p>
<p>What’s rather sad about all of this is that if he had simply admitted up front that money was his and his family’s most important consideration, he probably could have gotten a full ride from a top 12 college with excellent merit aid. He may even have had better financial options than A&M’s offer. I have seen Hispanics with his kind of stats and strong ECs getting full rides plus international travel, research money and other perks at universities that are much better than is A&M. </p>
<p>An added perk that’s important to some is that they got to enjoy those offers while going to school in warmer climates than in the snowy Northeast.</p>
<p>One last thing: I would wonder about a school where the professors encourage students to back out of their ED offers as Valdez says that a prof at A&M has encouraged him to do. If a university encourages students to break commitments for reason of self interest, that raises questions about whether the university would stand by its own commitments. That raises big issues for scholarship recipients. </p>
<p>I also wonder about the general atmosphere at a university in which self interest appears to be the guiding rule.</p>
<p>Well I wonder how forthcoming V will be in telling TAMU that we was accepted ED to Princeton.</p>
<p>I guess the question would be whether or not tAMU does the “honorable” thing and withdraw their offer since V was suppose to withdraw his application upoin being accepted ED.</p>
<p>SInce there is no right way to do something you know is wrong…</p>
<p>the saga continues</p>
<p>garland - I am tired of the whine of the American poor who are also wealthier than 99% of the people in the world. Poverty is relative. Nobody in 21st century Chicago wants to trade places with Louis XVth if it means they have to live in castle where wine freezes on the diner table overnight. And louis would have given you a fair chunk of lombardy for central heating and a window air conditioner. That aside who really cares what either of us thinks on this particular subject?</p>
<p>Momofwildchild, you bring up a good point, where do you teach your children their price should be?</p>
<p>Of course no college will sue. But many of you seem to have no problem with the fact that these kids are made fully aware that they are making a committment, their lack of keeping it reflects not only on them but on their high school and their college counselor who is charged with making sure they understand the committment. Any kid who can get into Princeton can get a free ride many, many places. Yet many are saying that a better deal coming along is reasonable grounds for breaking what is a contract, legally enforceable or not!</p>
<p>jmmom, your market knowledge arguement is the only arguement that has given me pause. Certainly, there are kids who go into ED not fully understanding. That is a valid concern. In this case, however, that is not at issue. He spelled out that they knew what they would have to pay, contrasted it with what he expected the other school to cost…he worked in an admission office, goes to a sophisticated school…and on and on. No naive bunny here, just a kid who got what he thinks is a better deal! You can argue with me all day, but the lack of feeling that he made a committment is good reason to question his ethics, integrity and honor, and adults encouraging this is seriously disturbing. Hey it’s not a legal contract! Everyone has a price! Well, I’d take the better deal! Painful.</p>
<p>kirmum, I have a bigger problem with lawyers representing child molesters, helping them get off, knowing the accused molester is guilty and will probably do it again. I know it is legal and it is a lawyer’s job, but I have moral issues with this. I don’t with many cases of ED.</p>
<p>nsm–professor just gave me an opinion about the difference in quality education, he never told me to go to A&M–he just said that the education was the same. he is a very bright man, but i will not disclose his name for his protection.</p>
<p>how much do the schools know? both of them know everything. A&M knew i was accepted ED to princeton and princeton knows I got a deal that was attractive to me from A&M. i’m not keeping secrets from anyone.</p>
<p>Well dstark, by all means do your part to stop molesters. Just discourage your kids from applying ED unless the who;e family is planning to honor the committment.</p>
<p>Patuxent, you make strong arguements other than the one about two wrong making a right.</p>
<p>Northstar, my thinking exactly, this kid could have gotten a free ride at a much better school. I hate to say it, but kismet?</p>
<p>In a perfect world we would all honor our commitments. We would all live honorably. Most of us do the best we can. Are there people on these boards raising children who have bought a child-priced movie or ski lift ticket for their small 14 year old? Added just a few “extra” charitable contributions to their income tax deductions? Drove home after a too-long happy hour? Had an affair? Called in “sick” to do some personal business?<br>
Yes, he is breaking a commitment. He is weighing the pros and cons. The con is what you are pointing out- he is not being honorable. I don’t think any of us are qualified to pass judgement.</p>
<p>And neither Princeton nor A+M told you to take a hike. The schools have no moral character. Good luck Valdez, with whatever you choose.</p>
<p>momofwildchild, certainly none of us are without sin and life will present many difficult choices. Among our choices will always be the easy way out or being dishonest. Do we want to teach children that this is just fine? If we are not instilling solid values we will end up with a generation that thinks Ken Lay did what any CEO would have.</p>
<p>Valdez, your signed withdrawal card should have been mailed to Princeton by 01/14/2005. Did you send it in?</p>
<p>That is a correct statement and the answer is no. I called Princeton fin. aid and explained my situation. They told me to write a letter so I did. They said I could postmark the card as soon as I got my reply.</p>
<p>Then it looks like Princeton is willing to reconsider your financial aid package. I hope you specified the EFC amount that your family was comfortable with.</p>