<p>Good post SBmpm. Exactly. Patuxent, why are you torturing us and yourself? An elite college education is clearly not something you value at current maeket rate and we accept that. The rest of us are lining up to pay what we can for our kids to have such opportunity, so try to accept that.</p>
<p>Cricket, are you saying if my kid gets into Princeton, I, as a parent, won’t have any loans?
Patuxent, I know you haven’t been on CC for very long. I like your posts.</p>
<p>Patuxent, when you apply ED, the rules are spelled out. Comparing them to riding in the back of the bus is a bit of nice dramatic hyperbole but it’s ludicrous. You may not like any number of rules, including the one about not peeing in the public swimming pool, but be prepared to suffer the consequences if you don’t follow them. If I speed, I run the risk of getting speeding ticket; if I violate ED, I risk my acceptances being torched at every competitive insitution. </p>
<p>And I really don’t recommend violating ED from the top of the diving board.</p>
<p>Anyone applying for financial aid fills out the FAFSA, and usually additional forms that vary by college. If the student is at a school that has need-based aid that promises to meet 100% of need, the need is typically met with grants, loans, and work study. Princeton meets it with grants and work study, not loans. Keep in mind that with loans, you’re not being given anything but a longer time to pay. So, grants instead of loans–hurray, we’ll take them; of course it means Princeton is giving you more money for the same amount of need, less is paid by you. So far as I know, this is the only school with need-based aid that is loan-free for all, no matter what income. (Brown just instituted that policy for its lowest income students, and UNC has some new provisions for very low income students, in-state I believe. Harvard has recently improved its aid as well, though I don’t have the details.) Obviously if you spend your parental contribution on something other than Princeton, you could choose to take out a loan, Dstark, but your financial-aid package still contains no loans. The aid package covers the same amount of need that any other need-based-aid school’s would cover, but without the loans. If you want a free ride altogether and you are middle class, try for a merit scholarship where those are offered. There are choices here, and Valdez had them too. He chose ED, his need was met, but not his want.
Any other questions, look up the schools’ individual web sites, talk to financial aid officers, or look up old threads on CC. I apologize to all the parents here who know all this, so many of you are so much more knowledgable than I am, but I hope this helps someone out there and satisfies Dstark.
Please don’t bombard me with popcorn shrimp like on Curmudgeon’s thread.</p>
<p>Patuxent and dstark - I agree with you often. Others, all your points are well-taken and I think everyone on this board endores the importance of principled living. Most on this board are saying that “you knew the rules”, but what some of us are saying is that there is a lot we didn’t know. The rules are not as simple as some are saying; there are different interpretations of whether your financial need is met.</p>
<p>The important point that patuxent is trying to make is that the origins of EFC are not in the colleges’ altruistic aim to help needy students. EFC is a response to government stepping in to stop selective colleges from meeting in a “smoke filled room” to set prices, by agreeing on exactly what $$ figure they would offer a given student. When that was stopped, they came up with a “formula” so it would appear they are not longer price fixing, but that’s really what it is. They simply want to make sure that they all offer the same thing to eliminate competition financially for their choicest students.</p>
<p>Patuxent is railing against that and I agree with him. I also agree with all those who say if you don’t like the rules, you don’t have to play. But what happens is - you evauate the rules, you evaluate your situation (S/D chances of getting in, your EFC, what you know about school’s merit/need based policies). Nov. 15 comes and you go ED and you are locked in. THEN, you learn more. Colleges offer you merit $$ you NEVER thought would happen (your S/D didn’t fit the profile of who they usually give to…), colleges court your S/D after s/he has submittted a good faith ED to another…</p>
<p>All of this changes your view of ED and it is now “too late.” The question is, should it be? What Patuxent is saying is that, to evaluate how much of an ethical violation you would be committing, you should look to the origins of ED. When you realize that the origins are not in fair play/help the needy student etc, but rather in avoiding government scruting of cartel-like price-fixing behavior, it colors your view of the ethical issue involved.</p>
<p>I’m curious dstark and patuxent, is your bottom line that the EFC is not a rational amount for most families? If yes, why?</p>
<p>I would have to look at it on a case by case basis.
When I look at Princeton’s calculator, there are facts missing that I think are relevant.
What is the parent’s future earning potential? How likely is that to be met? Are there family financial obligations that aren’t represented in the form? Who decides how much these future obligations will cost?</p>
<p>Cricket, if Princeton makes its calculations and says I can afford $15,000 a year, does every other school come up with the same numbers?</p>
<p>Cricket, are you saying if my kid gets into Princeton, I, as a parent, won’t have any loans?</p>
<p>Dstark, there seems to be a bit of a disconnect so let’s lay this out. (I am not trying to be condescending toward you, but I am a visual person , so I understand the need to see things laid out).</p>
<p>Lets take this step by step In calculating financial aid at a school that meets 100 % of your demonstrated need (like Princeton) your aid will be calculated as follows.</p>
<p>Cost of Attendance (COA) tution, room, board, books etc $42,000</p>
<p>EFC (Based on the information provided in your FAFSA, CSS Profile and/or institutional financial aid forms. Federal methodology- driven by the FAFSA. Institutional methodology- the college and and may give a little leeway) $19,000</p>
<p>Denmonstrated need equals COA- EFC $23,000</p>
<p>At Princeton this demonstrated need of $23,000 would be met with scholarships and work study (no loans)</p>
<p>The answer to your question is Yes you will have loans if your don’t have your EFC of $19,000 in the bank. </p>
<p>As I stated before, your EFC is going to be pretty much the same amount no matter where your child attends school. Unless you child got fulll ride merit money (that was NOT based on need) you would have had to borrow money no matter what school they attended. If you have a $19,000 EFC and your child went to your local state U, you would probably be considered a full pay and would still have to borrow of come up with a payment plan to meet your commitment.</p>
<p>For some families, having a $19,000 efc and having Princeton pick up the tab for the balance of the education is a pretty good deal because the child is attending for a little less than half price. In the end you have paid approx. $76,000 on a $168,000 education.</p>
<p>Using the same if your child went to state with no merit money and the school cost $19,000 per year, you have paid $76,000 for a $76,000 education.</p>
<p>I totally understand where you are coming from when you talk about hte economics, as V has been offered a “free ride” at TAMU. If your child were in the same position, you would pay $0 (no worrying about how to pull together the EFC).</p>
<p>I think part of the big underlying problem was that there really wasn’t a honest talk about money before the application process even began as there can be a big difference between what you CAN afford to pay (according to the FAFSA, you may not agree but that is what the government beleives you can afford) and what you are WILLING to pay. </p>
<p>It is certainly the perogative of V’s parents to say how much they can afford to or are Willing to spend. I know that it certainly was the case in my house as I told my daughter day 1, that we would need to look at offers to see what we could realistically handle. When we got our EFC, it was pretty close to the amount of our State U, so we went in with the mind set, that we knew we were going ot have to pay something, so that same money would be used to help pay for the school she really wanted. That is the reason that she applied RD. Even when all of the packages came in, she did not go to the school that gave her the most amount of money, but she did have leverage to negotiate her package so that Dartmouth would meet the same offer given to her by Williams (her second choice).</p>
<p>Kirmum, I was a little mind boggled at my EFC, but hey, what are you going to do, I may end up borrowing to pay it before it’s over but I see it as money well spent.</p>
<p>“if Princeton makes its calculations and says I can afford $15,000 a year, does every other school come up with the same numbers”?</p>
<p>Dstark, </p>
<p>It would depend on what school you are going to. (I did not want to recreate the wheel so I just copied the answer I previous posted)</p>
<h2>For example if you have a $10,000 EFC, you may not be eligilble for aid at your local public university because your EFC may be enough to meet the cost of the education there.</h2>
<p>SCENARIO 1</p>
<p>Your financial aid will be calculated as follows </p>
<p>A school which meet 100% of your demonstrated need (and gives generous scholarship/grant aid) would calcualte need as follows:</p>
<p>Cost of attendance (for the sake of this demonstration we will assume that the cost of attendance at your school is $42,000 per year)</p>
<p>Minus</p>
<p>EFC (which comes from the FAFSA)+ Sudent Contribrution (the amount of money you will contribute from your savings or summer earnings)</p>
<p>Equals</p>
<p>Demonstrated need</p>
<p>Using the concept of meet ing 100% of demonstrated need a sample financial aid package would be calculated as follows:</p>
<p>Cost of attendance (tuition, room, board, books, travel home, misc) 42,000</p>
<p>Expected Family Contribution (based on the FAFSA) 10000
Student contribution 2000</p>
<p>Demonstrated Need 30,000</p>
<p>Your demonstrated need maybe be broken down as follows:</p>
<p>Subsidized Stafford Student loan 2500
Work study 2000
Perkins loan 2500
School grant/scholarship 23000</p>
<h2>Total aid package $30,000</h2>
<p>SCENARIO 2</p>
<p>If you were to attend a school that DOES NOT MEET 100% of your DEMONSTRATED NEED (or GAPS) NYU is a prime example:</p>
<p>NYU does not meed 100% of demonstrated need, a student with the same finanicals may get a package as follows:</p>
<p>Cost of attendance (tuition, room, board, books, travel home, misc) 42,000</p>
<p>Expected Family Contribution 10000
Student contribution 2000</p>
<p>Financial need 30,000</p>
<p>NYU broken your aid package down as follows:</p>
<p>Student loan 1750
Work study 4000
School loan 15000</p>
<p>Total aid Package 21250</p>
<p>While the $21250 package may cover your “need” if you are a commuter student, it definitely would not cover your need if you are living in the NYU dorms and using their meal plan.</p>
<h2>NYU has left $15,750 of the $42,000 cost that you still need to attend NYU for one year still unaccounted for. You will have to come up with a way to get the rest of this money (outside scholarships, your parents taking out loans -if eligible).</h2>
<p>SCENARIO 3</p>
<p>school which meet 100% of your demonstrated need (and givesscholarship/grant aid along with loans) would calcualte need as follows:</p>
<p>Cost of attendance (for the sake of this demonstration we will assume that the cost of attendance at your school is $42,000 per year)</p>
<p>Minus</p>
<p>EFC (which comes from the FAFSA)+ Sudent Contribrution (the amount of money you will contribute from your savings or summer earnings)</p>
<p>Equals</p>
<p>Demonstrated need</p>
<p>Using the concept of meet ing 100% of demonstrated need a sample financial aid package would be calculated as follows:</p>
<p>Cost of attendance (tuition, room, board, books, travel home, misc) 42,000</p>
<p>Expected Family Contribution (based on the FAFSA) 10000
Student contribution 2000</p>
<p>Demonstrated Need 30,000</p>
<p>Your demonstrated need maybe be broken down as follows:</p>
<p>Subsidized Stafford Student loan 2500
Work study $2000
Perkins loan $2500
School grant/scholarship $13,000
unsubsidized Loan $10,000</p>
<p>Total aid package $30,000</p>
<p>I have never filled out a fafsa so I am sorry if I am asking a lot of questions. Sybbie719, so are you saying this…if I apply to Princeton thinking my EFC is going to be $15,000 and it turns out to be $19,000, it’s $19,000 at every school? Therefore, it isn’t just Princeton that would ante up $4,000 less than I thought, every school would come up with $4,000 less than I thought?
Edit: Sybbie719, I see you answered my question. Thanks.</p>
<p>No, the Expected Family contribution (Which you will probably first see on your FAFSA) is merely an estimate. The information is only going to be as good as what you report. Most schools ask for verification (a signed copies of your taxes along with the W-2’s ) of your income before making a financial aid award. </p>
<p>There are a lot of factors in this situation that we are not privvy to because we don’t know the nitty gritty of anyone’s finances. Princeton, and almost every other school will tell you that their website calculator is an estimate because the online calculators only work with a limited amount of information and do not collect the in depth information that the FAFSA and the CSS profile, or a school institutional aid form collects.</p>
<p>I will tell you this during my daughters college search we used the the financial aid calculators at Amherst, Williams and Dartmouth. Amherst and Dartmouth were a few thousand dollars off on what their on line EFC was and thie actual EFC which came with the acceptance letters (actual EFCs were about $2000 MORE ). Williams calculator was pretty much on point. Even though there were fluxuations, the EFC’s that we got from these schools were a little lower than what was on our FAFSA. I remember that Tuft and Barnard were pretty close to the FAFSA EFC.</p>
<p>At most public schools and Schools that only use the FAFSA in calculating financial aid, what ever the EFC is on your FAFSA, that will most likely be your EFC at those schools.</p>
<p>“I told my daughter day 1, that we would need to look at offers to see what we could realistically handle. … That is the reason that she applied RD.”</p>
<p>BINGO. That, in a nutshell, is what this whole controversy is about. If there is <em>ANY</em> question that the family is unwilling or unable to pay “whatever it takes” to send Junior to College A, Junior should apply RD to College A and not ED. It’s really pretty simple.</p>
<p>I can’t agree with the “better info, like a full ride, surprised V’s family and came in later, gee, let’s reconsider” posters. Sorry, but it is clear to anyone bright enough to be accepted ED at a great school: you are willing to pay and attend if you are indeed accepted, even though you might in fact <em>get</em> a free ride from a lesser school. What I’ve read in this thread is what I call gaming, and it doesn’t sit well with me. My kids – and my husband! – better not ever try to pull something as faux-clueless.</p>
<p>Sybbies719, I thought I was finished, but you just opened up another question. So it is possible for Williams to say my EFC is $12,000, Dartmouth to say $9,000, and Amherst to say $9500?</p>
<p>Yes, it is very possible. Duaughter got admitted to 7 different schools (Dartmouth, Amherst, Williams, Barnard, Bryn Marw, Tufts and Mount Holyoke) Had 7 different EFCs.</p>
<p>Jmmom, thank you, that was very well written. I understand your points and Patuxent’s, but as someone said earlier in this thread, two wrongs don’t make a right. If I think that if someone, or a cartel, has done something unethical, I wouldn’t feel I could therefore act unscrupulously myself. Not withdrawing apps was unscrupulous, and so would be plying for more aid when able to afford what was offered, if–if-- that is happening, and I really hope it is not. It would really be a slap in the face to all other EDers.
How many schools are you saying are price fixing? The most “elite” schools are not the most expensive. And as Patuxent said, all schools offering merit aid or need-based aid (so wouldn’t that be about all schools?) are discounting, so if Patuxent’s child happens to get merit aid, I assume he played/plays by the rules of that merit-aid school even though he doesn’t agree with its discounting. If a student EDs, he is agreeing that the school is the one he will attend if accepted. If there is any question about entertaining more tempting financial offers, why ED? He wasn’t coerced to apply ED, and if he chooses it, then like all others that choose it, he agrees to its terms. They are clear. Despite whatever inequities there are in the process, the terms are clear. (Mootmom, we see eye to eye here.) If a student of any income gets into Princeton and has the will to go there, there is a way, and if you want generous need-based aid, you’d be hard pressed to beat Princeton’s. It’s not free, not for middle income kids (maybe for very low income). It depends upon what you want. My child chose to attend Princton, gladly works to help make that possible, and is really grateful for the financial aid that is available. There were better financial offers, but obviously other considerations entered into the decision. Every family has its own decisions to make, as Valdez’s did. Of course a lot of people choose merit aid, and I am happy that it is available for them and was an option for us. But the merit-aid system isn’t perfect either. A lot of schools and scholarships use SAT cut offs in awarding merit aid, and of course low income kids as a group have lower SATs. It’s an unfair world, but I’m not going to break the rules or game the system and make it worse, and I’m not going to turn my angst into an excuse for transgressions or even mistakes.
We agree that the system isn’t perfect. Hopefully our discussion will be useful to upcoming applicants.
Sybbie, you ought to be a financial aid consultant.</p>
<p>Dstark,</p>
<p>Nan wrote an excellent summary of things to consider in the ED process</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=27872&page=3[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=27872&page=3</a></p>
<p>Then, I just don’t get this need met concept.
Princeton costs $42,000. It says it will meet my need. It calculates my EFC at $19,000 and comes up with $23,000, no loans.</p>
<p>School 2, also costs $42,000 and will meet my need. It says my EFC is $15,000 and the school will come up with the difference. This school will give me $24,000 in grants and $3,000 in loans. </p>
<p>In this case, school 2 is the better deal, the school with the loans.</p>
<p>If one school says your EFC is $15,000 and another is $19,000, I don’t know how the school that says $19,000 can say they met all your needs with a straight face. (I know schools don’t have faces).</p>
<p>Of course a lot of people choose merit aid, and I am happy that it is available for them and was an option for us. But the merit-aid system isn’t perfect either.</p>
<p>Cricket, Can you say that again. You have to remember that if your merit is tied to maintaining a certain GPA there may be things out of your control (professors from hell, gut courses, extremely hard or rigerous major ex: engineering, illness, unexcused absenses, not grasping the concepts because college is not h.s.) your GPA could drop from a 3.7 to a 3.65 and while you may think it’s not a big deal it can be enough to lose your scholarship.</p>
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<p>They could just be gaming the system to try to get students and their families to pay more … but I’m not that cynical. Or thet could have different methodologies for determining the EFC … for example, good arguments can be made for either including or excluding the families primary residence when determining the EFC … different approaches will yield a different EFC.</p>