Did anyone's child choose a free ride over a "more prestigious" school?

<p>But that is the choice that you make as a family. Right now your student can borrow money at about 2.7%. It may be the better deal to have your child borrow the money and you pay off the load instead of your taking a home equity loan that may be 4 to 5%. There are so many variables that there is not one clear cut one size fits all answer. That is why parents must look at the education and the financies. Some things to check for are:</p>

<p>Will the school meet 100% of your demonstrated need?</p>

<p>Does the School gap? (you definitely don’t want to consider NYU, because they tell you up front that they do not meet 100% of your need)</p>

<p>Is that demonstrated need met with mostly with grants or loans (a school can meet can give you all loans and still meet 100% of your need)</p>

<p>What is the average amount of debt that students graduate with?</p>

<p>Barring any major fluxuations in your income, will your aid be prett consistent year orver year?</p>

<p>Regarding Merit aid, read the fine print and know the terms of the aid. Is dropping classes held against you. Does it consider grades of pass/fail?</p>

<p>In the end families will do what is best for them.</p>

<p>Cricket as a family is willing to make the sacrifices need for her child to attend Princeton, because with need based aid that has no loans it is still a good bargain, more important it was a good fit for their child and the child was happy to attend.</p>

<p>As I stated before, Dartmouth did not give us the best package but it was my daughter’s first choice. We were not in a position to apply ED as we needed to look at packages.</p>

<p>Sybbie, that’s a really good point that merit aid may not be exactly guaranteed for four years, but may have its stipulations and uncertainties too.
Dstark, from what I have seen, schools that pledge to meet 100% of need AT LEAST meet what is indicated on the FAFSA, but in different combinations of work study, loans, merit aid, or grants. That indicated need is somehow being met. Yes, a lot of schools have their own financial aid forms as well, and you might end up with MORE AID than was indicated as needed on the FAFSA. That was the case with us. But the many combinations of aid are truly boggling.</p>

<p>Sybbie, we live as we always have, I don’t consider it sacrificing. The aid package was generous, we thought, and a good bargain as you say especially for a school that is a great fit.
Another thing to remember: outside merit scholarships can decrease or eliminate the student’s contributions and workstudy. Unfortunately they won’t alleviate the parents’ contributions, though! (May vary per school, I don’t know. Always scrutinize the aid policies of schools your own child is interested in!)
Sybbie, you are making a list like Nan’s I think, only yours is on financial aid. Maybe you and Nan could collaborate on a book…</p>

<p>So basically different need-based aid institutions are willing to do more, in their financial aid packages, to attract the best students (fewer loans, slightly lower EFC). Other places are willing to go to all the way the mat-- with merit aid-- to snare Susie 1600 SAT. This does not sound like collusion, it sounds like competition.</p>

<p>Some of the “merit aid” places are also EA and rolling admission schools. Thus packages could theoretically be compared with ED schools if applications were submitted early; if a great EA package came through, the ED or ED 2 app could be withdrawn prior to admission notification; or, better, the ED app could be submitted early, under RD, and then activated as an ED app if the EAs did not come through. On another thread, a student was applying as a junior to several colleges-- if her aid wasn’t right, she could just stay in high school.</p>

<p>What a family needs to do is to get educated about the different tiers of institutions and their likely aid packages. (From the examples that have been shared, it sounds like the aid calculators are fairly accurate and fairly conservative.) To be safe, assume your EFC could be a few thousand dollars more than the calculator says it will be. Also, assume there IS a free lunch, somewhere, for any highly accomplished student who would be admitted to a top 25 college.</p>

<p>Then decide what your personal family values are regarding finances & education and act accordingly.</p>

<p>Book title: Expert Lists To Help You Understand and Survive the College Application Process</p>

<p>Kdos’ “What Have You Learned” list could be included as well.</p>

<p>dsatark, it’s only the better deal if the school is the one you and your kids want. Different schools take different factors into account. Some schools consider equity in your primary home, others do not. Some wxpect a full contribution from a non custodial divorced parents, others do not. It really isn’t an issue of “fairness”, just one of how a school chose to see what affording means to them. If we can be honest here, the issue is middle/upper middle income parents who have priorities or expenses that don’t agree with the college’s formulas. I well know the pain of deciding to make education the priority. Goodbye new car, not yet big house…Yet honestly, the people I find bitching around me have the new car and big house.</p>

<p>Also let’s not forget, as in Sybbies case, when the schools are of the same calibre, and they want your kid, the lowest EFC school will most often meet the offer of the highest.</p>

<p>Sybbies case, when the schools are of the same calibre, and they want your kid, the lowest EFC school will most often meet the offer of the highest.</p>

<p>Kirmum,</p>

<p>I think you meant it the other way around. The school with the higher EFC will meet the lower EFC, if they want your student.</p>

<p>Dartmouth had higher loan amount and a higher EFC . When asking for a financial award review, we sent them the Williams offer (as school stated in their award letter that they would be open to review even if you sent in another school’s offer). Dartmouth gave daughter more scholarship money, reduced her loans and our EFC to meet the Williams offer. We were not looking for someone to top this or go into a bidding war as we had no intentions of going back to Williams for a counter. We knew Dartmouth was her first choice and told them that but the Williams offer was more in line with what we could afford. </p>

<p>(I don’t think it was a problem with Dartmouth because Dartmouth, Williams ,Amherst and Middlebury tend to draw from the same pool of students. daughter has friends at Dartmouth that she orginally met during admitted students days at Amherst & Williams and they all came to Darmouth together).</p>

<p>Will Princeton meet TAMU offer and provide V a free ride- I highly doubt it. But if money is his great leveler, then he is following the money.</p>

<p>“I just wish there was more consistency in the process. You have to practically be an attorney to read and understand these rules.” Bingo again. This is what I would ask those who are saying “you knew the rules” to consider. The expertise on this board is awe-inspiring and exceeds that of some (many?) of us. So, we allowed our S/D to go ED when we though we had considered everything thoroughly, but we hadn’t. I, personally, never went on any of these boards until after the ED/EA application and response times had passed. I would have had a much fuller understanding of implications. C’mudge - kudos to you for starting early enough to learn from the mistakes of some of us and the wisdom of others.</p>

<p>All I am saying (here, all can hum “Give peace a chance”) is to have some empathy for those who meant to play by the rules, thought they had done their due diligence, want to do the ethical thing and look themselves in the mirror but simply didn’t know as much as the best of you. Is it really fair to judge them so harshly? Or to insist that they no longer have any options? I suppose there are some who consciously game the system, but I don’t see that in V’s case. I see regrets, honest regrets for not anticipating what he might be offered. One of the posts said that many schools have SAT cutoffs for merit aid - that’s what we looked at in evaluating our son’s chances. SAT was his weak spot (1310) in terms of stellar grades, recs, rank etc. Turns out he did get merit aid and it changed how we looked at things. Is that so wrong?</p>

<p>"I suppose there are some who consciously game the system, but I don’t see that in V’s case. I see regrets, honest regrets for not anticipating what he might be offered. "</p>

<p>I think that you probably haven’t seen all of the things he has posted about himself. He his parents met when they were working on doctorates (thus, he doesn’t come from a family naive about education), he lives near enough to A&M to have interned last summer in their financial aid office (thus, he knows lots of inside info about financial aid), he has worked for his high school’s financial aid office (knows more inside info), and goes to an excellent high school (thus, sophisticated GCs, sophisticated students about things like financial aid, probably comes from a school where students get offered large merit packages from A&M and other schools).</p>

<p>He also was smart enough to land on CC last fall. This means he was privy to lots of info about how desireable he was as an URM (Mexican-American) and the various cautions about how applying ED can affect one’s finances.</p>

<p>Princeton’s info about ED also is very clearly spelled out on their site.</p>

<p>Thanks northstarmom. Perhaps I am projecting re V and giving more credit than due. But I just want to put in that being sophisticated and well-educated can, embarrassingly?, not be enough. My H and I have degrees from Wellesley, Stanford, UNH and Johns Hopkins between us. Successful professionals both. Excellent PHS, GC we have been thrilled with. And we thought we’d read a lot and as I said did due diligence. But we went to college in the middle ages (BA/BS 1967 and 1970; MBA 1984). And as I said never went on CC to see how much advice/empathy/guidance is out there. And we were blindsided by the merit opportunity offered to S by Tulane, making him rethink his ED to a similar, or somewhat higher, caliber school.</p>

<p>jmmom,
I hesitate to jump into this fray at this point, but I have a question for you? It seems that the reason you and your son are rethinking his ED is because he received a large and unexpected merit award from Tulane, NOT because your family’s financial circumstances changed unexpectedly making it unfeasible to shoulder the cost of the ED school. I don’t see how you can justify declining to attend the ED school under the cirumstances - this was part of the risk your son took on in order to enjoy the admissions advantage of ED. Am I missing something in your thought process here?</p>

<p>jmmom, where does your son stand now? Did he end up applying anywhere ED?</p>

<p>jnm–We had a very similar situation. S accepted ED to Columbia, then a couple weeks later, though he’d sent in the notification to UMich, he was offered substantial merit aid from from them. What did this change? Columbia was still his first choice school, and we had made the decision to pay for it. The fact that he could have gone to his second choice school at much, much less didn’t change the facts that we were fully aware of when we made the decision . The whole point of ED is you agree to foreclose the other possibilities, because this is your true first choice. Nothing was changed by the Michigan offer. And most importantly, my son had made a commitment, and it would never occur to him to dishonor himself by going back on it, nor would we ever consider asking him to.</p>

<p>Garland, Your post conveys precisely the point I was trying to make.</p>

<p>I’ve enjoyed the collective wisdom about ED (good thing Bob Dole doesn’t frequent these boards), EFC, and college pricing in general. I’ve recommended this thread and some others to some family and friends trying to “learn the language” for the first time.</p>

<p>Resident cynic that I am, I immediately went past the issues of whether colleges are being “fair” or not, or for that matter whether this kind of unilateral rule-making and virtual contracts of adhesion are somehow “morally right.” Instead, I’ve simply thought of this whole process as a game. Not a particularly fun or entertaining game to be sure, but a game nonetheless. The rules of this game – like it or not – are set by the colleges. ED? On the surface, sounds great for many kids with clear first choices. But, while enticing, that road to Candyland is not all gumdrops and candycanes, it is fraught with sacrifices (losing the ability to compare financial aid packages; losing merit aid possibilities from schools that offer merit aid) in exchange for the possibility of some tangible benefits (an early decision, and, generally, a significantly higher rate of acceptance).</p>

<p>I’d love to hear comments about a related issue. My son did NOT apply ED anywhere because we were not willing to play THAT game. We simply couldn’t take the risk of being bound by one school’s discretionary determination of what college would cost. Instead, he went the RD route and wound up sorting through different merit aid offers and financial aid offers that varied between $0 and $7K. The issue? Just this – I’ve long had a running argument with a good friend about colleges and merit aid. It’s not merely the cynic in me talking, it’s the realist, who is convinced that college officials sit in a smokey backroom, budget in hand, and strategically, with great thought and guile, determine exactly how they’re going to use their “tuition discounting” tools to benefit the school as a whole (very little thought, if any, given to which individual applicant receives this manna from heaven). Why should this business forethought be surprising? Many colleges are huge businesses and are very lucrative. I think parents need to think of colleges as a big business – they provide an education – at a PRICE – and they expect to make money – a LOT of money – in doing so. Colleges are not charitable institutions. So, despite specific college language to the contrary, I have never believed that merit money is anywhere near as likely if you apply ED as it might be if you apply RD. Why should they offer merit money ED? You know the ED game. You’ve agreed to pay full-freight, subject only to your EFC (at most schools) and the vagaries of their “meet need” packaging. Sure, there might be the occasional exception for some incredible superstar, but for the most part, you simply can’t convince me that a college is going to use their limited “tuition discounting budget” on an ED applicant where THAT candidate has already given up his/her leverage. Instead, they’re going to use this tool to woo strategically selected students as a way to entice some of these students away from similarly (or better) schools. They need or want an edge with these RD students; they need no edge at all with the ED applicants.</p>

<p>My friend thinks I’m Oliver Stone and accuses me of seeing conspiracies everywhere. In turn, I think this otherwise very successful and intelligent guy is as naive as your average five year old.</p>

<p>We played this game – by their rules – and were fortunate enough to receive a healthy discount. Would we have received this same discount if we had applied ED? Not a chance. At least, that’s what I think.</p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>

<p>Sorry if someone has already mentioned this. I just skimmed the latest posts and there is mention of merit aid v. demonstrated need aid. I don’t ever recall seeing schools post information on how many kids lose their merit scholarships. I can tell you that I hear of it locally. Kids get enticed into accepting admission from a private school with merit money vs. a state school. At first look, the cost seems equal, so why not go with the private school. Compare it to the cost at an elite with need based aid only and the family probably feels they’re getting a bargain (private education at lower price). Many kids cannot keep the GPA the merit money requires. Maybe it’s ‘only’ a 3.0 and parents know their child has done much better than that in high school so no one considers the money might be lost. Child slips below that, merit money is lost, and then family is faced with paying full cost of private or child having to transfer. A school that guarantees to meet demonstrated need will do just. If a student’s grades drop dangerously low, there will be repercussions but as long as the student is in good academic standing the money (provided the need remains) will be there. I wish schools had to publish figures on the number & size of freshman awards compared with upperclass awards. I think it might be surprising.</p>

<p>Motheroftwo and dstark - I only entered CC and increased my understanding of all the nuances of EDand the whole process AFTER S had gone ED to college “A” (similar or somewhat higher caliber than Tulane). (Apologies to those who have already read some of these details in earlier posts, but Moft and dstark asked). S had vacillated between the two as his top choice and we had advised him not to go ED for that reason. GC told him to think hard about his real first choice before deciding. He decided he was sure of A and so went ED there, EA to Tulane (in case he didn’t get in to A). As I said, we knew Tulane gave good merit aid, but S did not seem to “make the cut” for that, largely based on SAT. We were not cndidates for need-based. He received acceptances to both on same day. We sent in dposit to A, and emailed GC re how one “withdraws” from other applications (he had a few out EA, rolling and RD) - do you email, call, send letter, etc. but, of course, it was Xmas vacation so didn’t get any response from GC immediately. We traveled for Xmas vacation and came back to merit award ($22K) to Tulane. That is how our saga began. (All my posts show our thoughts/learning since then.) </p>

<p>We, of course, spoke with A and GC, and A and GC spoke, too. (Most important to us in the ethics of the matter was not harming relationship between our PHS and A, and thus negatively affecting future chances of kids from our school at A). Our GC felt we should/could definitely withdraw from A based on finances. A accepted that, although not immediately. </p>

<p>We had watched our S “leaning” more and more toward Tulane, even after going ED to “A.” Obviously this is not cricket. He had already committed by going ED. But that was before receiving courtship letters from Dean of College of Engineering, dean of Admission, dean of Fin. Aid from Tulane (all coming after apps. in). Naive (as I say I was never on CC ahead of time) we didn’t think that kind of thing went on after apps in. We thought schools had finished bombarding us with brochures, unsolicited scholarhips etc.</p>

<p>Hindsight tells me he never should have gone ED. But he was 17 - and you know they are - insisted he knew for sure what he wanted to do. Altho I can’t get inside his head (he won’t even let me try), I think this is what went on in there: he had always liked Tulane location better, he had alway felt (and still does) that “A” is a better school by at least some margin and that he should go to the “better” school, location be damned; but I think he re-weighted how those factors balanced out for him the more he thought about it.
Bottom line: We have raised him to be an ethical human being, not take the easy way out, and honor commitments. So now, We had to weigh enforcing ED decision vs. what now seemed best place for him and where he wanted to be. He is not an ungrateful kid, but the budgetary factors are not what’s affecting him. The $$, in our case, is delightful but not the key thing. For whatever reasons (I’ve guessed above), he now feels Tulane is where he wants to be. Do we say - go to A, you made your bed now sleep in it? For those who see ED rules as black and white, and think there is no excuse to still be growing in one’s depth of knowledge re this whole process, we have sinned. In our case, it’s not take the money and run, game the system, etc. It’s an evolution of thought that, granted, shouldn’t have taken place but did, partly due to outside events and partly due to a 17-year old claiming to be certain of something (why wouldn’t he be, he’s in possesion of all knowledge in the universe?) when he wasn’t. That’s my whole rub with ED, the questionable appropriateness of committing when you don’t have the whole picture. But I never in a million years could have anticipated this (well, I could have if I’d been on CC). I will advise all friends not yet in this process to be there early and often.</p>

<p>"I think that you probably haven’t seen all of the things he has posted about himself. He his parents met when they were working on doctorates (thus, he doesn’t come from a family naive about education), he lives near enough to A&M to have interned last summer in their financial aid office (thus, he knows lots of inside info about financial aid), he has worked for his high school’s financial aid office (knows more inside info), and goes to an excellent high school (thus, sophisticated GCs, sophisticated students about things like financial aid, probably comes from a school where students get offered large merit packages from A&M and other schools).</p>

<p>He also was smart enough to land on CC last fall. This means he was privy to lots of info about how desireable he was as an URM (Mexican-American) and the various cautions about how applying ED can affect one’s finances."</p>

<p>let me make some modifications.</p>

<p>my parents did meet while working on their doctorates. however, they completed all their prior education in mexico (where public education is free) and came to america under all-paying government grants (coming from economically disadantaged families). I hope you will agree that grad school is much different from college. I worked in my high school’s counseling (not fin. aid) office. I do agree that I attend a nice and competitve high school. I learned of CC through our school’s valedvictorian (who also applied and was accepted to Princeton). I learned about AA through him as well.</p>

<p>I’d also like to add something that may be important to those who call me “dishonorable.” I applied to Princeton ED, TAMU, Harvard, Rice, and WUSTL. Under the p-ton ED clause, I can apply to other schools as long as said applications are not ED/EA. when i got accepted to Princeton, I withdrew applications from all these schools except, of course, A&M, who had already accepted me anyways. About a week ago, Harvard contacted me via e-mail for an interview…which I declined and explained to the interviewer that I had been accepted ED to Princeton. Today, I received an e-mail from Rice asking me to confirm my withdrawal. Why not TAMU? b/c if the financial burden from Princeton was too much for my family (which at the moment it is) I had a plan B. so, to restate my position, i did not apply to princeton with the “lets see if i get in” attitude. its where i want to go. whether or not we can afford it without resorting to loans or debt is another question.</p>

<p>and nsm likes to imply that i’m rich. i’d say my family defines middle-class: we live in a one-story house w/ 3 rooms and 1.5 bathrooms. dad drives 1992 honda civic and mom a 2000 odyssey. we’re not extravagent spenders–so 17K/year def. is a lot to us.</p>

<p>jmmom,</p>

<p>What I don’t understand is how a student can apply ED to one place and EA to another at the same time? Doesn’t the ED contract say that the student won’t apply elsewhere? Doesn’t the counselor sign something to that effect? I thought that the GC wasn’t allowed to send transcripts elsewhere if a kid goes ED. Although thinking back to all these other posts, I guess many people do do both at the same time. Can someone explain? </p>

<p>Just wondering…</p>

<p>jmmom, I understand.</p>