<p>I am a lawyer in Texas. There are plenty of well-compensated lawyers here in Texas (not me- I’m inhouse) who graduated from Texas schools. (I still think he should go to Princeton- I don’t see him as an Aggie) It all goes to the “like-minded peers” thing)</p>
<p>Strick11 - your situation may not elicit as much ire and judgment as Valdez’ did on this board. But in case it does, please know that I, for one, totally empathize with your situation (see my posts re our son’s ED “rethinking.” ) Our Ss and Ds do not stop their thought processes on 11/15 when ED apps go in. As with your S, mine evolved in this thinking and I, for one, don’t think they should be punished for that. It doesn’t fit the ED rules, I know, and I DO have concern re teaching kids to honor their word, but this is simply too important a decision for their next several years to take the point of view that they are stuck with their prior thoughts. One can say that they should have thought it through completely before goind ED. But really, a 17 year old knowing everything they need to know? They like to pretend they have been in possession of all knowledge in the universe since age 13, but they aren’t and we know it. As long as they are not harming their HS relationship with the college, I say let them reconsider. And, by the way, give the spot at a great school to someone who will treasure it.</p>
<p>Maybe your son will end up at CMU anyway. Sounds like that’s what you may wish for. I know it’s hard to achieve a balance between standing by and watching vs. advising/persuading. Also, I agree that grad school can be plenty of time to get the “prestige” degree, if that is important.</p>
<p>If he is willing, seems like the trip to Pitts would be good before he makes his final decision. Why decide on Sunday - so he can relax for the Steelers-Patriots game (lol)? Btw, we are part of Red Sox/Patriots nation here - hope you won’t hold that against me.</p>
<p>mootmom - would there be a benefit to doing FAFSA in order to have access to loan programs that may be attractive in terms of rate/when you have to start repaying etc.?</p>
<p>ah - I see several have already suggested this.</p>
<p>cmudge - the tables re income/aid… did they also address assets (probalby not as it would require a 3D matrix, which reading your posts you can probably do in your head). Assets have a huge amount to do with need-based aid.</p>
<p>Dizzym - thank you for the “handbag” laugh.</p>
<p>jmmom: in reference to your question about whether a kid can ever know everything he needs to know, well, obviously not. None of us ever do when we make decisions. But I think the take-home advice from your son’s story (and I realize it’s too late for you), is that if a kid is wavering between two schools, and finally declares that one is the favorite, that kid may be a really bad candidate for ED. In my S’s case, he had declared that his ED school was his favorite back in April, and never wavered. And i tried to make him. I asked him throughout the summer—“look, think about it, are you sure?” If I’d seen any indecision at any time, I would’ve counseled against the ED. In the fall, he was notified of his acceptance to Mich right after he sent in the ED app. He was very happy to get it, and then I started pushing him again. “Do you fully realize that if you get into the other school, you HAVE to turn Michigan down. If you’re at all dismayed by that, you can call and turn the ED into RD.” He asked me if I was trying to make him second guess. BAsically, yes, I was looking for any sign that second guessing could happen. Well, he wasn’t going to, he was absolutely sure, and he said goodby to Mich without regret.</p>
<p>Going into this whole process, we had never considered ED (his big sister who had a lot of problems deciding on a s chool, and then transfered, would have been a disastrous EDer). But S was a poster child for what ED is supposed to be about, and for him it worked like it was supposed to, and he had a very relaxed senior year.</p>
<p>3togo, we’re doing the same thing with our retirement planning…we’ll do whatever’s needed to make sure that they go to the best place they’re able to get into…education’s first in our book…forget the frills. When my kids come home wide-eyed from friends’ houses and say “they’re so rich. They have xyz” my husband and I just look at each other knowing that 9 times out of 10 the college/retirement savings are going down the drain to buy “stuff”.</p>
<p>garland - yes, you are right. He was clearly not a good candidate. At the time we saw it as he “may not” be a good candidate. We did not push our advice to him not to go ED, rather we only suggested and while we did probe, obviously not enough. We didn’t push our advice because we weren’t sure - he is a quiet kid who doesn’t share his thinking a lot. We thought it best for him to make his decision in consultation with GC, but we should have gone with our “gut.” He would have followed our advice, I think.</p>
<p>Dke:
Amen to your post above - and that’s from a confirmed agnostic, too :)</p>
<p>Optimizerdad: 1 Hummer=2 yrs at Princeton…LOL</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply and the sympathy, jmmom, I know I broke into the flow of a good discussion. I have mixed feelings after we were all excited about him going to CMU. He’s already go the sweat shirt and we ordered cold weather clothes while they were on sale. He’s never had any. :)</p>
<p>I’m hoping he’ll at least wait until we visit CMU and he gets to talk to the folks there about some of the possibilities they can offer. Some of it is that he just realized he can get exactly what he wants at his current school, but there’s no way to be sure anywhere else. I’m not sure what he’s thinking about the money, though, and I don’t think I have much room to reason there.</p>
<p>CMU hasn’t be his dream for all that long, but he was excited. I just don’t want him to hurry a decision or make one he’s going to regret. Either way. And teaching this kid to honor his word isn’t what I’m worried about. He’s the ultimate boy scout. But you’re right, there’s a reason why a 17 year old can’t enter into a contract in this state.</p>
<p>DKE-
Couldn’t agree more. The book “The millionaire next door” speaks to this philosophy. We have good friends whose kids drive new BMWs, they have a gorgeous house with all the “toys” (we just watched one of the football playoff games on their huge flatscreen TV), take extravagent vacations ( take themselves and several of their kids friends to $350/night hotels), they own a vacation home, etc. I believe they could easily invest plenty in their kids’ educations, but their kids go/went to their local public schools, which, unfortunately, are not the better public schools (though, to be fair, one just transferred to a different district to get away from a bad crowd). One is in the State U (a good school), one is in a local college, and one is still in HS. I don’t think they have put an emphasis on education. I hope they will all do well, but it is just a very different philosophy than ours. We take more frugal vacations, (I love to find bargains), I drive a 6 yr old minivan, and we paid $$$$$ to put our kids in private school. We have told our kids we will support them in any college choice they make, but we have instilled in them the value not only of education, but that finding the right place for themselves, not just the “name” is important. That said, out older s. did look at a lot of the “big guns”, and he applied for a lot of outside scholarships on his own, to help defray the cost. In the end, he chose a great, but not a “name” school. I went to a well known seven sister LAC, and my bro. went to an Ivy. We both know lots of people who went for the “name” and the opportunity to wear it on their sleeves, and we know many who went for the educational opportunities they offered. Just a different mentality and value system.<br>
I can’t get with the handbag thing… it reminds me of “sex in the city”. - Carrie Bradshaw with all her mega-hundred dollar shoes and not a penny in the bank. Sad to live such a superficial life. I am much more comfortable with no debt other than a small mortgage. The large check for my s’s second semester of college just cleared the bank…</p>
<p>Thanks for the post, jym626… I’ll have to go buy the book…I hope that despite my kids’ grumbling about not having all of the goodies (although you couldn’t pay me to take the neighborhood to Disney!) they’ll appreciate what we’re doing for them in the end…I know how grateful I am for the education my parents gave me. They passed up alot of frillls, too.</p>
<p>DKE-
Disney?? Nope-- They went to the Atlantis in Nassau!!!
Oh-- and it wasn’t just a bigh flatscreen TV they had, it was a huge plasma TV !</p>
<p>Wow, what a thread!!</p>
<p>A merciless dissection of the ED game and “enrollment management”. A spirited defense by the IVY crowd who feels their sense of privilege and merit attacked and come to the defense of the game.</p>
<p>Valdez, I’ve been impressed by your ability to remain level headed in this discussion. You do have to decide what you want to do. Kirmum’s comments on this thread give you an insight into an elite mindset that many think is particularly prevalent at the Ivies. You are seeing it from the folks who are supposedly the exceptions to this mindset at those schools, those not born into that type of elitism… Is this for you at this stage of your life? Talk it over with your parents. They might not be up on ED rules, but they probably can offer some valuable guidance.</p>
<p>The Princeton professor was right. You can get a “good education” at A & M. Being a professor he sees personal finance in a different light than bond traders or corporate lawyers who went there as undergrads. I guess they would say he, too, isn’t “Princeton Material”. As you probably know Henry Cisneros went to A & M , then went to Harvard grad school. His accomplshments exceed those of any Ivy grad posting on this bbs. Get his number. Call him up and ask him what he thinks. Bet he’ll talk to you.</p>
<p>Kirmum urges that you can make an awful lot of money if you go Ivy and then go into certain well paid fields. This may be easier from the Ivies. As she says It could be enough to easily pay back the $80 k if you are going into a well paying field. On the other hand empirical evidence shows a kid like you can make a lot of money regardless of which school you choose. Perhaps this is not your main focus. What is your focus?</p>
<p>Decide on the basis of your values not just purported quality of “education”. Realize what we are probably talking about, as Kirmum details, is access to prestigious connections. Her husband hires "Ivy grads, and you can tell from her posts she would, too. She isn’t clear whether A & M undergrad then Harvard Law would satisfy them. As you probably already know, many people learn to read and write on an Ivy League level.</p>
<p>Your call. Keep us posted. i would urge you to put in a last minute app to UT, but that opens up a whole nother can of worms.</p>
<p>texdad, what do you think are the opportunities for a person who gets a full ride at Texas A and M? Valdez, that is one question I would ask A+M. What has happened to people that have gone through A+M with a full ride.
texdad, calling Cisneros is a great idea. Are there full ride opportunities at UT?</p>
<p>Texdad, I share your apprehension about spending your time with the “elites”. You can have a good life and have very little contact with the elites if that is what you want. If you want to spend time with the “elites”, and maybe become one, that’s fine too. </p>
<p>There are many ways to live a life.</p>
<p>Texdad, what is your kid up to? How’s the college search going?</p>
<p>I agree with Garland that there are some seventeen year olds who know what they want and do not waver or budge an inch. I can say this with assurance because I have one of those. I have one who worked three part-time jobs (about 60 hrs. per week) in the summer to make sure there was enough money for books and to help pay, and who was determined to take out loans if we wouldn’t or couldn’t swing the parental contribution end of things. That is one of the things that really nags me about Valdez’s situation–I don’t see any of the attitude of, “I really really want to go to Princeton, so how do I make that happen?” He shouldn’t have EDed, obviously, and he can’t undo that, but the worst thing for any kid would be to end up somewhere for four years where he can’t handle it, financially, emotionally, or otherwise. It may be a good opportunity for Valdez to go to Prineton, but it doesn’t really matter if anyone thinks so or if thousands and thousands of other kids want his opportunity. It only matters if it’s right for him. You could send a kid to any amazing school, but he has to be willing to seize the opportunities there, and if he’d rather be somewhere else, what good would it be to send him there? Yes, we can tell him that this situation should never have happened, but now what? As far as what is best for him now, that’s a tough one. I could tell him all sorts of things about Princeton that would entice him, and people who know A&M could tell him about opportunities there, but there has to be an inner drive to go for things, not an outer pushing. I have no idea how Princeton handles these kinds of situations but I can’t imagine a school forcing a kid when thousands of others are clammoring to get in. I’ve asked him where his high-school counselor is in all of this and didn’t get a reply. I definitely don’t see Valdez’s dilemma as “the cartel’s” problem, and I also don’t see it as an aid problem, more like “tempting offer trumps.” Again, if he really wanted to go to Princeton, I’d bet it could be worked out. I don’t see four thousand dollars as pocket change. My gut feeling on this is that either wrong numbers were plugged in somewhere in getting an esimatebut just in case there was a mistake on the aid forms, I would go over all the forms with a fine-tooth comb and figure out where the difference lies, just in case more money might be forthcoming. I think I would double check any time there was a discrepency, but here also because Princeton’s calculator is known to be a really good one. Not to the dollar, of course, but 4000 off seems a lot to me. Imagine how unhappy everyone would be if they were getting unexpected family contribution amounts–I just haven’t seen that, so on the chance that there was a mistake somewhere, why not check? On other threads, parents have taken up need issues with the financial aid offices with success. (I think you need to demonstrate that it is need, not want. ) But of course working out the finances is only worth it if it’s important for you to go there.<br>
Texdad, I’ve just read your post after the above was already typed. Wow, “the Ivy crowd who feels their sense of privlege and merit attacked.” Really I thought it was more along the lines of “play by the rules or things get really messed up,” but we can disagree on our assessment. You know, I really am offended by people who think that kids are at certain schools for the name, or that those schools are for people “born to privlege.” (That refers to your previous post, page 31.) About half of the kids at Princeton are getting financial aid and more than half are from public schools. I can attest that a middle class kid can be there and be very comfortable, happy, challenged and involved, working with world-famous scholars as well as bright, dynamic, interesting peers. This is a kid who worked hard to get this education; it was not handed on a silver platter. There are all sorts of people at Princeton. Yes, some of them are rich I’m sure (wanting a fine education for your kids isn’t limited to any one class, is it?) but you’re wrong if you think there is an atmosphere of flaunting wealth, or that kids from humble backgrounds and regular old public schools can’t thrive there. That said, as much as Princeton is about perfect for my child, I have no idea what would be best for Valdez.</p>
<p>Dstark, he wants to go to the U of Texas. Ultimately he was ambivalent about playing the URM card as his grades weren’t good enough normally for the Ivies. We hope he gets into UT Honors, though it is about as competitive as the Ivies. If not he will have to work his way up by making some good grades. He feels up to the challenge. We have applied to Grinnell, as he liked a visit we made there in the fall and ARizona State’s Honor College, a free ride with much attention and a better % getting into med schools, his current goal than the Ivies. A & M as an auto admit, though we don’t like their conservatism. In rank order: UT, probably even if no honors, ASU, Grinnel and A & M. Mom wants another app or two. He doesn’t show much interest.</p>
<p>He has a lot of friends who will go to UT , who tend to be pretty indistinguishable from those going the elite private route. We tend to be family oriented people with all 12 of our bros and sisters living in Texas, 8 aunts and uncles went to UT. He is an only child. I think he llikes having cousins who may well go to U T as few in our familly are into following the capitalist job market wherever it may lead. Maybe that means none of us are “Princeton Material”. Who knows?</p>
<p>I think it still gets down to whether you believe in public versus private schools.
What really ****es me off is the move by those who want to take the elite publics, paid for by generations of taxpayers and turn them private as they seem to want to do in Virgina. </p>
<p>Is your duaghter feeling deprived of elite companionship at U of Michigan?</p>
<p>Totally off topic but it may make reading on topic posts easier for those of us with aging eyes. If you are posting a long post, adding some paragraph spacing really makes them easier to read. Even with a larger font to display them, those screen-long paragraphs are hard on the eyes. Take a peek at Texdad’s above, compare it to some of the long unparagraphed ones here, and I think you’ll see what I mean. </p>
<p>Thanks, everyone.</p>