<p>dke - Thanks, you addressed just the qx I was asking and from your experience, I would say you got just the experience I did at a seven sister, tiers be damned. Of course, I don’t think Wheaton qualifies as the less expensive education some are asking about in the “is it worth the cost” part of this thread.</p>
<p>jamimom- Another good point. Although my S doesn’t need it, I got the definite feeling at some LAC’s we visited that the school in effect “puts its arms around” its students and shepherds them carefully through. Lafayette gave me that feeling - eg, stated that if you don’t show up for class, prof will email/call you to see how you’re doing. Not policing, just caring. This could be a critical thing for some families to look for.</p>
<p>Dstark and jamimom - Can’t remember everything that showed up in this thread but I guess the comment I will add here echoes the last two. Some schools may indeed be worth the $40,000 while others clearly are not. It depends on the kid, the school, the fit, the needs, etc. </p>
<p>I think we - S, H, and I, with D adding her nod too - would agree that S could do just fine at the state universities here. And since H teaches in the state system now, we would benefit from reduced tution for faculty kids. S could get a good education and go on to succeed in what he chooses to do.</p>
<p>But we seek more than that for his college experience. State U would be less challenging and would not meet his wish to experience life in another part of the country, meeting kids from other places and who have had other experiences. It would be less of a growth experience.</p>
<p>One thing that is important to our S is internship opportunities. State U is often in a small college town that offers little in the way of what might be available in a big or even medium sized city. D spent four years in a tiny college town and did a great internship - with a stipend from the college - during the summer. That suited her needs. S may be more inclined to do an internship while in school… so while that may not speak directly to the quality of the classes and college experience and such, it is part of the mix and must be evaluated as we seek the best fit for our S.</p>
<p>We’ll see - no final decisions yet - but I am glad we have some good choices.</p>
<p>While choosing between large state U’s and private universities one must also take into consideration choice of major. For eg, an Engineering education experience at Cornell or Stanford may be the same as at UMich or UT Austin, many classes at either university will be huge and many others will be taught by TA’s, whereas the scenario might be totally different for lets say an English Major.</p>
<p>Wow, I just read more than 10 pages of this thread and the topics have varied wildly so I’m going to have to respond to a couple of different topics:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I don’t agree that a student should break an ED contract because of a better deal from antoher school. However, if the student clearly cannot afford the EFC, then I suppose it’s ok - what else can you do? In the case of Valdez, it seems that the concern arose only after the offer from the other school. For kids with real ED mindsets, offers of greater aid from other schools won’t make a dent in their desire to attend the ED school. </p></li>
<li><p>Taking out small student loans is not such a bad idea. Students can build their credit. If the parent wants the student to graduate debt free, then the parent can pay off the loan for their child. It’ll look good for future credit worthiness.</p></li>
<li><p>If you measure the value of an education from a certain school by how much money you will make when you graduate, you’re operating under a different value system than those who measure the value of the school by the quality of education and wealth of experience. Everyone has their own criteria. In my own life, money isn’t too high on the totem pole because I’m pretty happy/comfortable with what I have now. I have no motivation for more material wealth - I have “enough”. I believe I’ve passed this mentality on to my son - he’ll have to determine what “enough” means for him, in his life. </p></li>
<li><p>An important factor in college selection, which seems to be often overlooked, is the % of students from out of state and the % of international students. A diverse community was high on son’s search criteria. Finding a place where there is the greatest opportunity for peer learning and cultural exposure should be key. It really doesn’t help if you travel 1,000 miles from home to go to a school where 70% of the students are from one state…does it? </p></li>
<li><p>In my experience with old-guard elite families, they aren’t Ivy focused (Ivies seem to “common” to this crowd - commonly attained or commonly sought - same thing to these folks - comon is common) . Rather, they focus on top LACs. I think the whole “Ivy snob” thing is overrated. People who are Ivy snobs really need to get over themselves already (not to anyone who is posting on this board), there’s a whole crowd of folks looking down their noses at you while you’re looking down your nose at others. Funny how that happens…</p></li>
<li><p>ED doesn’t always deal a bad EFC hand, as I have proven with son’s aid package. </p></li>
<li><p>Understand, as someone mentioned in another post, what your income really might entitle you to in terms of aid. You might be surprised. I’ve seen people post on other threads about incomes of $80k-$120k thinking that they surely make too much to get aid…which is clearly NOT the case. As was demonstrated in the earlier post, significant aid can be achieved by those earning $140k or less and having typical american financial pictures - own 1 home - money invested in 401k, income from job, etc. Anyone earning $150k or less should definitely fill out the aid forms and expect something - and it you earn less than $120k you can hope for something significant!! Try it.</p></li>
<li><p>texdad, what sort of URM is your son? What’s this business about URMs mixing with the elite at Ivies? I don’t have any reason to believe that the white kids at Ivies are mostly elite kids. They’re smart kids from all sorts of backgrounds. Heck, I bet the % of black kids at Ivies who are from elite, wealthy backgrounds is higher than the % of whites from those same backgrounds…strictly speaking of %s within each group. Thus, the URMs are getting exposure, but not in the way you’re thinking - just the oposite. There have been longstanding arguments that most of the blacks being admitted are from wealthy families - hence, the whole anti-AA debate. </p></li>
<li><p>G O E A G L E S!!</p></li>
</ol>
<p>momsdream- your #4 is a good point for anyone reading this thread who is early in the process. % oos was a deal-killer for us in beginning of our search if it was anything below at least 50% preferably a lot more. Diversity of exposure is such an important part of the college experience. Also, high % in-state can mean lots of commuters (nothing wrong with them but campus life is very different in that case) or “suitcase” weekends, leaving the out of state student feeling very out of it as the campus empties while everyone goes home (to see GF/BF, do laundry, etc.).</p>
<p>Notable exception: Rice - very high in-state for such a selective notable school. And I think still gives a culturally rich experience. Sure there must be others.
Re #9. Sorry to disagree, respectfully, from Patriots Nation.</p>
<p>Momsdream: Excellent points! I laughed out loud at that “There’s a whole crowd of people looking down their noses at you while you’re looking down your nose at others.” Priceless.</p>
<p>I"m not sure about that, Momsdream…in the “old days” (my parents generation…going to college in the 1930’s and 40’s) the old guard elite was Harvard,Princeton or Yale…period…didn’t need good grades, just $$ and a good prep school diploma…maybe a few Amherst and Williams thrown in there, too.</p>
<p>dke - that would have been a time when admission was based on your bloodline and pocketbook. Such is not the case these days…anyone with the SAT, grades, essays is subject to a fair look. Thus, the exclusivity for HYP is gone. I don’t think they’re interested in the mad frenzy of HYP admissions these days. </p>
<p>This is just what I am seeing and hearing…not in an overt manner…just a quiet acceptance that this is the new “thing” (and plenty of the people I see going in this direction are parents holding degrees from HYP). I think it’s an interesting trend.</p>
<p>I know that some where it balances out as what the parents pay for thir kids tax bill will be less than footing the bill for tuition, so in the end everyone pays something.</p>
<p>JMmom: I second that about Rice. (Daughter currently attends.) When you are talking podunkly little states (Mass, Rhode island, Maine, Delaware), a high percentage of in-state students may mean lots of commuters and a regional feel. When you’re talking about a GOOD SIZED state like Texas - why we have so many different climates and cultures, we’re more like our own country! (Why it takes days just to drive across our fair state!) I believe that Rice’s charter calls for 50% instate - or something like that.</p>
<p>I can hear the Mass. residents squirming as we speak. Have you been there? - may not rival Texas in size, but diversity is huge. Maine looks tiny on the map, but is geographically huge and is like two different states - one very rural/wilderness (most of it), one very sophisticated (Portland and south). I’ll let others defend poor little RI and Dela. </p>
<p>I see what you mean about Texas so large that “in state” doesn’t mean easy to run home at drop of hat. Ditto California, where I lived and which has, of course, huge % in-state at all their top univs., because of course you can barely even think of going there if you are not Ca. resident. We don’t live there anymore, so UC’s not a realistic option for our S, who also didn’t want a large school. I guess I won’t tell you that we live in one of your “podunky” states (lol or trying to). In fact, I’m thinking of changing my username to podunky - has a nice ring.</p>
<p>There are still many, many of my Harvard classmates who are among the gentry that prefer Harvard for the kids. They have had many generations of their family attend and it remains a proud family tradition. I think the difference today is that other schools have become acceptable to families who only considered HYP in the days when you went from Groton or St. Paul’s to Harvard or Yale then into the family business. </p>
<p>I must admit to having some strong leanings when I embarked on the college tour last year with my daughter. Why not take advantage of her double legacy status at Harvard? However, daughter had loved Columbia for years, and nothing changed for her as we saw all of the ivies and top LACs. Things did, however, change for me. I fell in love with Dartmouth, it’s beautiful campus and focus on undergrads. I also loved Williams and Swat and began to wonder why any undergrad would attend a school that didn’t focus on them.</p>
<p>So I think the issue is that we as enlightened parents are thinking about fit in a way those who just valued the family traditions of the past did not. Our focus is on producing happy people as opposed to those who simply fit the mold. </p>
<p>It is, however, hard to deny that HYP are still muy exclusive in all circles I know.</p>
<p>kirmum - just found your older post re S giving us some choice new smilies. How about one for us folks from podunky states (should probably have us chewing on piece of straw). ;)</p>
<p>As for the in state thing, I was shocked to read here recently that 50% of the students at Stanford were from CA. I had a hard time believing it so I checked and the poster was correct. Does anyone know why this is?</p>
<p>I think it is because California is so large in size and population compared to the northeastern states. If you figured out the percent of Harvard students from Mass. and other New England and Northeast states with a similar total of size and population, you would probably find that it is also over 40%.</p>
<p>I wonder how much pure time travel considerations play into this. For S/D’s and parents who are very HYPS-focused, I know many East Coasters (where I am now) who just won’t give Stanford a look. Similarly, I know many Californians, where I lived 20 years, who don’t want kids all the way on the “right coast.” Or, parents want kids to experience East Coast, but kids don’t want to go. Myself, when I decided to go to business school and lived in noCal at the time, applied only to Stanford in a “Stanford or bust” geography mode. Of course, I was over 30 and a little settled.</p>
<p>That’s true about Standford. But, I wouldn’t be so concerned about the % of in-state students at Stanford because CA is so diverse anyway - comprising of a population made up of plenty of transplants and internationals. Thus, I don’t think the student body is nealry as homogenous as it would be in other places with a large in-state population. </p>
<p>Stanford is one that wouldn’t worry me (and didn’t, as it was MY “secret” first choice for my S). And as I sit here staring out the window at the first of two blizzards due to come our way this weekend, I am having California dreams right now!!</p>
<p>momsdream - My Stanford junior son just called us a little while ago - he almost never calls unless he needs help or advice on something. I think he was feeling a little homesick (totally uncharacteristic of him) being all the way out there in that nice weather and missing out on the snowstorm and the Eagles game! His first question (which should be totally irrelevant to him by now) was - Do you think school will be closed on Monday? Old habits die hard !</p>
<p>Do you think school will be closed on Monday</p>
<p>I just had the best laugh when I read that. Hey, I think that’s his way of saying that he is with you in spirit and is willing to take one for the team as he will stay “home” to take off in sympathy of all of us will be shoveling out tomorrow. Just spoke to my daughter in NH who cheered because the snow is not coming their way.</p>
<p>Kirmum, it is interesting looking at colleges now through an adult’s eyes. I, too, loved Dartmouth and Williams. I also wished I could have gone to Amherst, but came to the conclusion that Wesleyan was really the fit for me. And none of those schools were on my list back then.</p>
Old habits die hard !</p>