<p>PG:
Funny you mentioned the Saab. That was our very first car. H bought into the idea of its uniqueness. At the time, I thought the Saab die-hard advocates were a bit pretentious. :)</p>
<p>I drove an old model Saab- and it was even the color that was referred to in the Saab ads as one of the least popular/mainstream (I think it was called alabaster yellow). We had a series of Saabs until they got too “normal” looking. Maybe I would have been OK at Chicago for undergrad afterall!!</p>
<p>epiphany, there’s another possibility, too: Maybe your daughter made an immature mistake. It happens. I can definitely see how someone could think the Chicago prompts were too precious, or trying too hard, and not want to see herself that way. They are a little dorky, and maybe she had some investment in not being a dork, while failing to recognize that, in fact, she was a dork, too, or maybe just that most of “her people” would be dorks and it wouldn’t matter so much in a post-high-school world without alpha-girl cheerleaders to devalue dorkiness.</p>
<p>Of course, it didn’t wind up mattering that she made that mistake, because she wound up in a perfectly good place for her. And if she hadn’t wound up there, it isn’t even clear that she WOULD have made the mistake (if it was one). She might have gotten over her initial reaction, applied to Chicago, gone there, and loved it. (Or not.)</p>
<p>High school seniors do make mistakes. My daughter, for example, turned up her nose at Penn (too close, too many people she knew, too pre-professional) and Hopkins (too many pre-meds, Baltimore not cool enough). Two years later, when she knew a little more about colleges and about herself, she admitted that she should have given both of them a lot more thought, because of their much-more-professional creative writing programs. She knew, in choosing Chicago, that she was going to a college where teaching creative writing was not valued, but she didn’t know how much she would wish there was a real program. She might have made the same choice in the end, but it would have required thought and deliberation, something she hadn’t recognized at the time.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thank you!</p>
<p>Interesting theory, JHS, but in her case not true, and she was also hopelessly mature for her age (has always been). No, wasn’t about being “seen” a certain way or worrying about identifying with a particular self-concept. </p>
<p>But yes, clearly, her app. choices & ultimate decision were completely right for her and continue to have been, after the fact. Truly I was only using her as an example. I’m more concerned with two things: the exclusionary stereotyping that I mention and the other D’s/S’s that would be excellent fits for Chicago but for whom the essay prompts were the singular turn-off.</p>
<p>For example, sometimes I see on the student forums that a student is very disappointed/disheartened by the absence of rigor or scholarly orientation in a particular school that supposedly promised that, or she/he was led to believe that. That could be an excellent public, for example, and the student is definitely well within the stats for Chicago, as well as the h.s. background to handle the curriculum. She or he shouldn’t have to go through some kind of weird identity crisis for failing to “Love” the essay prompts and thus not be Members of a Particular Club. I actually find that (artificial club membership) way more immature than an adolescent legitimately wondering if he/she will be viewed in a particular light.</p>
<p>And yes, I do agree that many college applicants make immature mistakes or assumptions. That’s one reason I’m so passionately involved in providing information to them so that they will find the best fits.</p>
<p>JHS:</p>
<p>Good points.There are many reasons why one would choose a college above another. Some are more considered than others; some have to do with academics; others with non-academic issues such as cost, location, distance from home, weather, social scene, ECs. My question remains whether students who would thrive at Chicago are attracted because or despite the writing prompts.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m on your team.<br>
But I still don’t get where you’re claiming that anyone thinks that Ivy League acceptances are “below” liking Chicago essay prompts. It’s just different. </p>
<p>It’s like you value the thought of being intellectual and free-thinking, and you want to like the Chicago prompts because you want to feel that you are that way, but you don’t, and you resent the Chicago prompts for “making” you feel that you don’t belong in the intellectual free-thinking world – but you do; you just don’t care for those prompts, that’s all.</p>
<p>No, you’ve pegged me wrong there, I’m afraid, PG.</p>
<p>I don’t just “value the thought of being intellectual and free-thinking.” I do consider myself an intellectual and free-thinker, as do my many associates. (Perhaps hopelessly so. 
) I’m not so invested in my identity wrapped up in Chicago essay prompts, LOL. If you knew me better, you’d understand what makes me tick: that even though I’m not a mathematician, I’ve been accused often, including on this forum, of being way too logical for my own good. I won’t repeat the illogic of what bothers me about the essay-prompt-non-equation, but it’s there for anyone to re-read.
:)</p>
<p>P.S. It was post 600.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Told ya I wasn’t Chicago material :-)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So then why does it bother you that you don’t care for them / find them pretentious, etc.? If you’re comfortable that you are indeed an intellectual free-thinker (which I’m sure you are!), then what does it bother you that <em>one</em> institution out of many institutions happens to offer up certain quirky prompts for admittance? Chicago doesn’t define the meaning of intellectual – so if they happen to define it by people who groove on quirky essays, and you don’t, so what? They aren’t the gatekeepers of intellectualism. They are <em>one</em> place where intellectuals can gather and do, well, whatever it is you intellectual folk like to do, ponder the meaning of life or whatever.</p>
<p>epiphany, take as givens that Chicago wants to use essay prompts (1) to improve the quality of the essays its receives, and (2) to communicate marketing messages to applicants, i.e., both (a) that it is a place that values intellectualism and ideas, and (b) that intellectualism at Chicago can be playful, not necessarily all-intense all the time. What, exactly, would YOU do if you were Chicago’s Il Doce (Dean of College Enrollment), other than be less dorky in writing preambles to the prompts? (I’m pretty sure those preambles come from Admissions, not the students who suggested the prompts.) (Note, by the way, that many prompts apparently come from students who do not, in the end, attend Chicago.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Au contraire. That’s their spin, however inaccurate. And apparently lots of people, including adults on CC, buy that spin, because they’ve argued repeatedly that “real” intellectuals love the prompts (vs. pretenders to intellectualism). I’m here to correct the spin.<br>
:)</p>
<p>Post 610:
Excellent, JHS. LOL, I was waiting for opportunity, and permission. (Holding my sides as I type this.)</p>
<p>I would:
(1) team up with marite while she and I edit the preambles to the essay prompts – not decimating them, but, you know, reducing the Pretension Factor. 
(2) challenge faculty to come up with equally provocative prompts, & submit for administrative review, to be included along with student prompts.
(3) make sure that the adults are in charge ultimately, so that if all the essay prompts submitted are needlessly obscure, and no faculty come up with intriguing alternatives, I and other fictional administrators would choose additional ones that could appeal (while not duplicating any Common App prompts).</p>
<p>Why do you think the long preambles come from adults?</p>
<p>I wouldn’t argue that real intellectuals love the prompts, but I do think they appeal to a different kind of kid. One a little less inclined to navel gazing perhaps (and I’ll add that some navel gazing is a good thing), or one more inclined to be creative or willing to take a few risks. </p>
<p>Does anyone know the history of the Chicago prompts? I remember back in the dark ages (fall of 1972 to be exact) ironically I didn’t apply to Yale because their quirky questions meant I couldn’t use the essay I had written for Harvard and Penn. As I recall one had something to do with money and I couldn’t think of anything I wanted to say about it at all. It’s too bad because as it happens the programs at Yale would probably have been a better fit for where I ended up (architecture).</p>
<p>(I don’t like the preambles to a lot of the prompts either - my favorite ones are the short odd questions. (“How did you get caught? (Or not as the case may be?)” was a popular one this year if the U of Chicago discussions are any indication.) Surely though adults are monitoring the prompts - even if they all come from students, though I have no problem with faculty also providing prompts.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But if it’s inaccurate, then they DON’T define it! </p>
<p>Going back to the Saab analogy, Saab positioned itself as the choice of the quirky free-thinkers, but they didn’t DEFINE quirky free-thinkers. It’s entirely possible to be a quirky free-thinker and not care for a Saab for whatever reason (you preferred a different car, you use a bike or take the train).</p>
<p>Post 614:</p>
<p>…in which case, you shouldn’t mind if I correct the spin and redefine – or liberate – the concept of intellectualism.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Why do I think the preambles come from adults? Because everything comes from adults! This is Chicago’s application supplement – if the adults aren’t writing the first draft, they are sure as heck editing it, and taking responsibility for choosing this and not that. Come on! How can you think this isn’t an adult product?</p>
<p>As for the preambles, when would students write them? As I said, I think most of them come from Option 5 essays, although maybe people send e-mails from time to time, too, saying “This would make a good essay prompt.” Either way, I doubt it’s universal to write a little paragraph about the essay prompt, separate from the essay, and in any event the admissions staff has to choose what goes in the application. So it’s their work.</p>
<p>Faculty: Sure, you bet. I’m certain they are sitting in their offices wondering why the Dean hasn’t called them up to ask what might be a good essay prompt for a few thousand high schoolers, and fingering their top-10 lists of potential prompts. Or maybe not. Maybe they don’t have any experience in how high school students would react to some highly general, open-ended prompts. Maybe they are happy to leave that sort of thought to the admissions professionals to whom they have delegated such matters. Maybe – and I think this is likely – they are pretty darn happy with the results over the past decade or so, and haven’t noticed that there is a problem that needs their intervention, whether or not they know anything that would inform that intervention.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>JHS, you could be correct as far as what Chicago WANTS to accomplish. Unfortunately, most of the list of “givens” amounts to wishful thinking and assumptions that are not necessarily true nor realistic. Fwiw, those prompts do NOTHING to improve the quality of essays or elicit displays of the so-called intellectualism. Perhaps, lost in all of this, is the fact that the essays are supposed to be COLLEGE APPLICATION essays of 18 years old, and not impersonal scholarly research. Or should we believe that the prompts are emant to elicit displays of creative writing? To be submitted to a school that does NOT value creative writing --as you intimated in your daughter’s story.</p>
<p>As far as what Il Doce (or Dean of Admissions) could do, there is plenty, and most is not that hard. For starters, his office could stop playing games and drop the smoke screens. If the office wants to send messages, there is no need for this much “subtility” but plenty of need for CLEAR and verifiable information and facts. Speaking about facts, why it is so hard to disclosing numbers of admissions on a timely basis, as well as disclosing numbers that somehow match the earlier releases? In this regard, there are indeed quite a few parallels between Penn and Chicago where the (now departed) old guards of Stetson and O’ Neill seemed to believe in the power of misdirection and misinformation. </p>
<p>Is there more to change? Obviously, some of us might believe that dropping the off-putting pretentiousness exhibited in the “suggested” prompts might in fact help both the school and the … applicants. After all, shouldn’t truthfullness and transparency be the best resources for students during their application process.</p>
<p>
Because they spend so much time arguing with one another. An old classmate of mine, one who has always been known for his penchant for theory (sometimes at the expense of evidence), decided he had enough of the theoretical joustings with colleagues and has taken himself somewhere else. Of all the people I have known, I always thought he was the one most likely to thrive there, given his love of theory and debate.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Apparently not if one equates obscurity with intellectualism.
;)</p>
<p>And JHS, sorry, but if I were faculty at Chicago, I would create time to submit an essay prompt. OTOH, clearly I would never be hired even if multiple-Ph.d’ed – because apparently I don’t know The Secret Handshake.
:)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Isn’t that for Chicago’s adcoms to decide whether they are satisfied with the quality of the essays they receive? How are you in a better position to determine that than they are? *Their satisfaction with the caliber and quality of the essays is what matters, since they are the ones making decisions with the information at hand. Not yours, not mine, not anyone else’s. </p>
<p>I think it is possible that there is internal pressure to “keep 'em quirky” and that anyone who suggested that they be toned down might be with disapproval – I don’t know, but that’s eminently possible. But that’s Chicago’s problem. That’s not yours. I don’t know why you want to take it on.</p>