@Twoin18 that’s awesome.
The class at our school isn’t a memoir class really. It’s an essay class. Essays were everything from social commentary to opinion papers to personal essays about one’s life. Like non-fiction creative writing.
This perpetuates another elitist stereotype.
Of course, there are good writers everywhere. Once again, you twisted my point. I was talking about the standards of “great writing” in high school v. college. It was not a personal attack on your children’s education at all.
That said, I have taught for over 25 years at three different colleges, including an ivy and T20. So yes, I have taught prep school kids. It is exactly this kind of thinking that leaves them surprised and feeling defeated in college when they do not maintain straight As. Their parents have filled their heads with the idea that because they pay a lot for a private school education, their kids are superior to everyone who didn’t go to those schools. Never mind the fact that there are plenty of public schools where students also receive a great education, but they don’t have the “bells and whistles” of squash courts and three different theaters. The prep schools perpetuate this as well because that is how they continue to profit. It’s exactly this mentality that contributes to prep students (and their parents) often thinking they are better than public school kids. It’s unfortunate, but mirrors the stratification and attitudes in American society.
This is not what the thread is about, so I will let it go. I was just responding to your comment about high school writing.
I also wish people would just come out and say where their kid is going to college if it’s a large university with easy access to professors. I find this very hard to suss out just through “research.” Also how much of the class is taught by TAs vs profs.
Schools which have the time and enormous resources required to insist on serious writing starting in middle school and guide it through the years are few, because such teaching is labor intensive and costly. You misunderstand me completely, ProfSD. I attended a public school. As you say, however, this is not relevant to the OP.
My son’s school offers classes in 30 different languages, including many uncommon ones, and this semester alone there are at least five different classes with 3 or fewer students, including one with only 1 student.
In addition, when my son approached one of his professors and explained that he would like to minor in a subject that required one of those uncommon languages, but he had not been able to take the classes yet because the time slots always conflicted with his varsity practice schedule, she spoke to the department head and they rearranged their course schedule for next year so that he can take the classes he wants.
If your son’s friends at Big 10 schools are not getting individual attention and detailed feedback from profs, then you’re probably correct that they “are not trying hard enough.” Any student who has the stats and accomplishments to get into an elite school also has what it takes to get lots of attention, feedback, and mentoring at a state flagship. If they fail to take advantage of the opportunities available, that’s on them, not the school.
All of S18’s profs know him by name, and he’s had lots of individual attention. The largest class he has had so far was ~40 students and the smallest was 4 or 5. He is also a 3-season varsity athlete, with a ridiculous (IMO) practice and conditioning schedule; between practice hours and class hours he can almost never meet with profs during normal office hours, yet every one he has dealt with has been happy to meet with him outside regular hours. As mentioned above, some profs have even rearranged course schedules to accommodate him. Several profs organize lunches or “chat times” at local restaurants or coffee shops, and the undergrad advisor for his department invites anyone who doesn’t have a place to go for Thanksgiving to have dinner at her house every year.
I attended a SLAC as an undergrad, and I got a great education, but I really haven’t seen a lot of differences between my experience and my son’s — except he has more than a dozen profs in his major and a wide variety of courses to choose from each semester, whereas my department and course choices were vastly more limited, and I basically had the same dozen kids in all my major courses from about sophomore year on.
This is like comparing the experience at a small company versus large corporation. The variation in anecdotal observation is as large as number of companies overall.
Observations vary even within each of these situations by person.
Aside from the natural pull of selection bias, it’s also physically impossible to have experienced competing environments simultaneously. Even if we’ve experienced one and have first hand feedback on the other. It’s still hearsay evidence.
Yes, it is helpful on a site discussing any set of options to have general ideas of the pluses and minuses of the basic consideration set.
IE large vs small. Colleges. Companies. Families. Etc.
But these are observations and generalizations.
Of course one may generalize that you have smaller meetings and more face time with leadership in a small firm.
Does that make it a better experience?
Depends completely on the individuals involved.
Do large firms tend be less personal and hierarchical? Sure. However, the right unit or team may feel the opposite.
It can certainly be a different experience for two people in the exact same environment together.
There is no thing as universal truths in these discussions.
@privatebanker - One of the best responses I have seen. Completely agree.
Yes, several of my kids turned down schools that were far higher “raked” including Ivies for schools that were better fits. And in some cases paid MORE. My husband still shakes his head and says, “what’s wrong with Cornell?”, a school two of mine turned down and another simply did not want to even said application as a strong candidate. As a NYer, the land grant colleges there are significantly cheaper and if the youngest had selected certain STEM programs, it would hsve been further discounted with the NY STEM scholarship for which he qualified. Nope. Went to more expensive options that are better fits.
My friend will absolutely push pricier LACs with less and recognition over some state schools that her son that her son has already gotten acceptances. She is a firm believer in LACs and feels that in this case particularly, would be a better fit despite the much higher price tag.
I’ve known a number of kids who have found a great niche in a less known school and turned down prestige for a program. BS/MD programs, in particular, even at schools not known outside of their region get picked over Harvard routinely. It’s not alway about the name.
However Yield numbers and other stats show that prestige, reputation and name recognition are UG factors in school choice
Good thread. S19 is a finance major and wanted to attend one on the Top 10 business schools, applied to 4. Waitlisted/rejected at 3, got into the 4th. (Spent weeks devastated by the rejections, since one of those had been his dream school since 9th grade.)
Ultimately, turned down the one acceptance and now attending the Darla Moore School of Business at U of SC. We could afford full pay at a private, although we did not see the value. Before we could weigh in strongly, he concluded the same thing. (His conclusion would have been different for that dream school.)
He fully understands that the biggest benefit of the top tier schools would be their name recognition in seeking an internship in the Northeast (his goal). Thus, he is working very hard to pursue any and all contacts on his own and doing many ECs within the business school to give him an edge.
BTW, very happy where he is. He is in the Honors College and has almost all honors sections of courses. First semester and now this one, no more that 25 people in a class. He has gotten to know the profs well, took a couple of them to lunch last semester. Yes, the prof in one class bled all over papers and met with kids on multiple rewrites. (A Psych 101 class, which had 21 kids - no big lecture hall, classes consisted mostly of discussion on reading, tests were all papers. It can happen at a big school.) Loves the talented and creative kids in his Honors dorm, about 2/3 of them from elsewhere in the country.
“Yes, several of my kids turned down schools that were far higher “raked” including Ivies for schools that were better fits. And in some cases paid MORE.”
@cptofthehouse - Thank you for sharing this, this is one of the responses that I had hoped to see. Everyone does not turn down the top schools because of affordability issues. There are people who are willing to pay more for a better fit, even if they do not have the ‘name’. No judgement here.
@SammoJ - This is also one of the things that I was seeking, that kids are resilient, that after they have mourned the loss of the “dream”, they have recovered and are happy. Thank you.
My daughter also turned down Cornell land grant college with the STEM scholarship …which would have brought the cost down significantly. After visiting twice and meeting with her friends who were there, she concluded that it was too stressful and competitive (her perception, may not be reality). She wanted a collaborative environment (again, her perception).
She turned it down for a state school. I hesitate to name the school here, but it’s a very strong one. This does not mean that honors programs at lower ranking schools are not as good…they most certainly are. Kids from our HS who graduated at the very top of the class are at some of these schools and are very happy, challenged, engaged, etc. I have seen the things these kids are involved with from their first year on campus…very impressive.
One has to get over the notion that top school = immediate success and engagement, while regular school = lack of success and engagement. There are too many nuances, personalities, and variables here. We have to get over the notion that they can’t find their people at “lesser” schools. That being said…sometimes they can’t. My younger kid definitely would NOT find her people at her sister’s school, so sometimes…it won’t happen. Do your research. I don’t believe kids will ALWAYS bloom where planted…she would not have bloomed at her siblings school. She needed a lot more.
Our CC has articulation agreements with many schools, including Cornell. Some kids who graduate from Cornell began at a community college. Nothing wrong with that…it mirrors the real world. My older kid did graduate work at an Ivy League school. One of her friends was 27 and still doing his undergrad work…he took a few years off after his sophomore year. Again…Ivy league does not mean a straight path to success.
There are kids who graduate from Amherst or Yale who get great jobs. There are also kids who graduate from Colgate or Carleton…and don’t. I know kids from Cornell who never had an internship and are employed due to family friends.
My coworkers daughter is graduating soon from Vanderbilt. She has a job lined up, but the other day her mother commented to me that she needs a few roommates and hopes she can pay the rent. Are there Vandy grads who make higher salaries? Absolutely!!! Are there kids at these schools who seem to have it all? Yes!!!
My D’s friend recently graduated from a top business school and has a job…almost the same salary as my D who has a gap year position (weird, yet true).
The real world is not organized into neat, little boxes. Find a fit school that is affordable (and if it’s Princeton, that’s great!), find a major that you love with the understanding that some majors might be higher paying than others (at least initially), get involved on campus with volunteering, clubs, research, internships, etc…and develop your resume…and then do everything to knock your experience out of the ballpark. And recognize that life gets stressful and sometimes they may need to pull back a little…or a lot…it’s ok.
Do you know what our kids learn regardless of school? They learn that there are many different types of people, students, paths etc. This was a real eye opener to my kid, who lived a sheltered, homogeneous existence prior to college.
@twogirls Absolutely agree. Know your kid. Stop comparing kids to other kids. Ask difficult questions. Pay for what works for you. And mainly, know that life doesn’t run in a straight line.
I seem to read a lot of animosity toward top private schools vs. state schools. Kids can do well anywhere. Not all states schools have gigantic class sizes and not all top schools are going to guarantee a good career path.
It seems that we constantly have this discussion about small colleges vs large universities, or elite privates vs public flagships. Each has its own pluses and minuses. What’s best for one student may not be the best for another. Some flourish more in one environment than in another. Some will succeed regardless of the environment. We’re all different.
It sure beats paying for expensive colleges and involves no stress.
“A growing number of people are deciding not to have children and spend their disposable income on canine ice creams, pet cams and memory-foam dog beds. “
https://www.1843magazine.com/dispatches/dispatches/for-the-love-of-dog-0
@twogirls . We visited Cornell as well and my kid would’nt apply either.
Some schools just not are a good fit for some kids despite the luster of the name, high rank in some ratings.
I remember a friend of ours who was a Dartmouth alum as was her her husband. Two out of their three kids did not want to go to Dartmouth. They applied, and were accepted but ended up at their state flagship where they excelled and have done very well thereafter the idea of going to a remote town in New Hampshire did not appeal to them despite the Ivy luster.
And so, to sum up: The “unpopular decision” is widely enough made that it really does seem that we oughtn’t call it unpopular.
Lots of good points on here, too many to address them all, but just to share my own experiences -
I’m a high school senior who’s been on this forum since my junior year. I know, I know, you’re telling me to get off and go do something else - and I get that. I’ll admit at the start I did get suckered into reading Chance Me’s and comparing my own stats. But reading discussions like these have really helped me reevaluate what I want out of college. I decided I didn’t want a super competitive school, regardless of whether I could in, and I didn’t want to waste time or money to see if I could. I only applied to one reach school (Rice), and three other solid Texas public schools (UT, A&M, Texas Tech). Frankly, I’m still terrified I might not get into Rice, but what else can I do? I don’t want to apply to a bunch of reach schools just for the sake of getting into a reach school; I want to get into the schools I picked.
My classmates think otherwise, though, being the types to apply to a bunch of reach schools either because of parental encouragement or a “Why not?” attitude. There’s peer pressure from it, even though it’s well-intentioned; my friends know I’m competitive like they are, so they’re trying to encourage me to reach my full potential, I guess, for lack of better words?
My point is, these forums are a breath of fresh air, funnily enough. They offer voices of adults who know about finances, job opportunities, overall happiness, and things that we 17 and 18 year olds don’t fully grasp. I’ll probably read through this thread again to soothe my insecurities and doubts when my classmates are getting acceptances into a variety of big names. But once that period’s over, I can go into my chosen college assured that I made the right decision, didn’t get caught up in prestige, and am going to make the most out of the next four years.
So a big thanks to everyone for all their thoughts, experiences, and lively debate on these subjects. It’s been helpful. 