Did you make the Unpopular decision?

Parents Forum
321

My D had a research position at a world renowned facility one summer. I just went back to the website and looked at the schools where these students were from (about 50 schools were listed). Here is a sampling:

  • Clemson
  • Cornell
  • Ball State
  • Denison
  • Drexel
  • Duke
  • Emory
  • Furman
  • Georgia Tech
  • Harvard
  • Indiana
  • Johns Hopkins
  • Wake Forest
  • University of Wyoming
  • Xavier
  • Umass Amherst
  • University of Missouri
  • Wisconsin
  • University of Mississippi
  • University of Oklahoma
  • UVA -UNC
  • Kansas State
  • Stony Brook
  • University of Arkansas

There are a lot more, but I wanted to show how students at all types of schools get these positions and achieve success.

They all presented their research findings in front of students, doctors, researchers, etc from all over the world. My husband and I flew out to see them…and we were quite impressed.

322

The OP asked about “accepted to Ivy or very selective colleges”, then choosing a less selective college. This is a somewhat different question than many of the thread responses and quite uncommon/unpopular, as can be seen in yield or cross admit figures.

The main reason for the difference is the many students/parents who favor a not “very selective” instate public option generally don’t apply to the “Ivy or very selective college” as a backup in case the less selective/“safety” college rejects them. That wouldn’t make sense because the “safety” should have near certain acceptance. So this large group that favors the less selective college has little impact yield or cross admit stats for the very selective college.

If you only limit the question to only applicants who apply to both a very selective college and a “safety”, then this group is extremely likely to favor the very selective college over the safety, so choosing the “safety” over the “reach” would be unpopular with a very large portion of this subgroup that applies to both.

323

What is a safety school for an Ivy caliber student? I would think that it’s still an excellent school.

324

@hurricane314 - Thank you so much for adding your input and wisdom to this thread. I know your parents must be very proud of you because I certainly am. I wish you the best. Please come back and let us know your good news. I’m actually going to have DD20 read your post for encouragement.

325

@hurricane314, College Confidential can be a snake pit. It’s good to know it can be helpful, too.?

326

Two girls, a safety school for my son was the honors program in the state flagship. This school was also a financial safety, costing us $0. Son had a cousin who went to the flagship and remained there for medical school. However, this school was less strong in CS/NS, son’s anticipated major. Advantages were having close friends there.

327

Yes, and we have no regrets at all.

My son got into an excellent private university, but he got a full-ride (tuition, room, and board) from the University of Louisville. The state of Kentucky also awards students money based on grades and ACT score, so he had free tuition, room and board plus extra money for books, etc. It wasn’t his first choice, but he saw the advantages. Because of his scholarship, he’s been to China, spent a semester in Germany, participated in a summer program in Oxford, and spent a month touring around Europe with his friends. He was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship to Laos and spent a year there teaching English.

My daughter got into two really good private schools and got substantial scholarships from both., but she would have still had to have taken about $75,000-100,000 in student loans She also got into the University of Kentucky and was awarded a full scholarship plus room and board, plus the money from the state. It wasn’t her first choice, but she saw the advantages it offered. She has been awarded some departmental scholarships on top of her initial one, and now she’s making money going to school.

She has been able to travel to China for 5 weeks and Spain for 2 weeks because she has no loans. This summer, she will travel back to China. She has been involved in the College Y-Club and has gone to Washington D.C. for the meetings. She’s been able to travel to conferences around the country to give presentations in her major. She also has had extra money to “play” with and has gone out west twice with friends to camp, hike, and climb.

My youngest is now struggling with this choice. She has full tuition plus the money from the state to go to a state school. She’s auditioning for musical theatre programs at other schools that are FAR from free. She has some scholarships to some good schools, but nothing that will come close to free. I’m pretty sure she’ll end up at the state school, but she’s going to see what kind of offers she gets from the other ones before she makes that final decision.

I think it will be pretty darn amazing to have sent 3 kids to college and have them all graduate debt-free. Their experiences they’ve been able to have because they weren’t burdened with loans have broadened their lives more than any Ivy could have.

328

@kyderbymom it sounds like your kids had some outstanding experiences and it seems that your older two made the right decision. Good luck to your third!

329

Sounds like you have great kids with excellent colleges experiences.

I will however challenge your statement that they have “broadened” their lives more than ivies ever could.

First off, ivies gives excellent financial aid so it’s possible that they would not have had to take out much, if any, loans? Secondly, because ivies (and ivy equivalent colleges) have huge endowments, there are many perks and opportunities to travel and study throughout the world for free. Lastly, IMO the actual 4 year academic undergrad education one receives is probably the most important aspect of getting a college degree, a critical factor in “broadening ones life”. I don’t think that HYP et al are lacking in this area. On the contrary, they excel at it.

Again, happy for your kids but let’s not discount the experience one receives at a world-class institution of higher learning for top students that can handle that type of academic experience and excellence.

330

I agree that Ivy League and similar schools can broaden ones life, and if a family could afford to send their kids without turning their lives into a pretzel and ruining their retirement, and if it’s a good fit…there is no reason not to attend. I would certainly do it, but if others don’t…that’s fine. Like I said earlier, just make sure the parameters and expectations are set up ahead of time. There is nothing wrong with sending your kid to the best affordable, fit school…and if it happens to be Princeton…that’s great!

While I agree 100% that the education at these schools is superb, I have not yet met any who have had the experiences described above (not saying it doesn’t exist). I know two recent grads from Harvard, one from Columbia, two from Barnard, two from Brown, 9+ from Cornell, one from Dartmouth, one from Penn, one from Swarthmore, one from Carleton, three from Duke, two from Vandy, one from Georgetown, and one from Wash U. They all had an outstanding education, but none of them traveled extensively during undergrad (other than one semester abroad) presented their material at conferences in DC, became a Fulbright Scholar, had outrageous internships that those at “lesser” schools did not have, etc. They all moved on to grad school or settled (or will settle) into their “normal” careers. Some are engineers, some work for non-profits, one is a paralegal, one works at a healthcare startup, one is now a social worker, another is a counselor, etc.

I am not suggesting that these experiences cannot be found at Columbia or at any other similar school, but I am saying that it doesn’t seem to be the norm for the “average” kid. I think for the “average” kid, the focus is more on that four year experience (which I am not downplaying btw). And I will repeat myself…anybody who thinks that this “intellectual” experience, relationships with professors etc…can’t be found at a public school such as UVA etc or within a strong honors program…is living in a bubble. School brand certainly comes into play for certain careers…but not if one plans to apply for an MSW or an accelerated nursing degree, etc.

Again, do what you can afford…just make sure the plan is discussed ahead of time.

331

One more thing…one girl from Barnard and one from Harvard…they both ended up at a CUNY school (public colleges) for their degrees in social work and counseling…and had a wonderful experience there. I know both families very well.

These kids absolutely have their four year experience, but then they graduate and join us normal folk (although I question my normalcy these days based on my posts).

332

There are good reasons other than finances to pick a less prestigious school. In addition to the fitlikevto factor, it is often easier to take advantage of certain opportunities at schools where fewer students are vying for them.

As an extreme example, There is an amazing woman I know who has very strong legacy history at Cornell. Parents, grandparents, siblings, and other family member all went there and current faculty and employee connection as well. So it was pretty much a given that she go there, and so she did. She was well qualified in her right, as well.

She didn’t like it there. She took a leave of absence and took courses at a local college while trying to figure things out. Liked it there enough to matriculate. Became the school’s first a Rhodes Scholar. She will straight up tell you that it would not have happened for her at Cornell. As strong of a student as she was, she was a little fish in the big pond there. The competition for a lot of coveted opportunities was fierce which made things very stressful for her. At her college, she was able to take far more. advantage of things. She was able to do a sport, she was able to get research activities and get faculty to really advocate for her. She was honored as a distinguished alum not too long ago, and she is much cherished at that school.

I’ve seen this sort of thing at a number of highly competitive schools. Unless you are truly operating at the zenith of a field, you might be far better off in terms of working with profs ,meaningful activities, better chances of getting into highly selective programs at a school that will advocate for you, not gate keep.

I’ve seen kids have to go through en mass clearing houses, really gauntlets for recommendations for grad school and medical at some very highly rated colleges whereas smaller school might nurture and support.

I’ve seen many a premed not get into Med school from known “cutthroat “ schools. Horrible term, but it can accurately describe the premed and certain other goals at them as there is a culling process that can be brutal. More often, it’s just a lack of urgency and high support, especially at schools where the emphasis is on graduate students and research. The most highly ranked departments are not necessarily where the best opportunities are for undergraduates. Resources tend to be more for the graduates. I’ve stated this repeatedly to premeds who are eyeing such schools. Many would do far better and a smaller school without the graduate students. Weed out courses can be truly merciless at some of these schools who pride themselves on that fact at times.

333

@socaldad2002 Did you happen to graduate from an Ivy or other top 20 school? I’m a double elite school grad and have many friends that graduated from top 20 schools and I’ve never heard anyone wax as poetic about them as you do.

334

I got accepted to Stanford and Berkeley but picked Berkeley. It was such a none event i never thought about it really. I hated Berkeley but never regretted going there, or wish I chose Stanford instead. Berkeley gave me grit and perseverance that I am not sure Stanford ever would (I am sure Stanford people would argue against this but whatever this is my experience). It gave me my first and only job since graduating. Most importantly it gave me my husband the most amazing man on the planet. Funny that he is the only one who ever mentioned the fact that I got accepted to Stanford, once during his proposal and the other at our wedding, how he was glad I didn’t go to Stanford and Berkeley brought him his soulmate, etc, very corny.

335

@cptofthehouse. Think you hit the nail on the head. I know many parents that would rather have their kids be the “big fish, smaller pond”. Regardless of school choice or name. College is such a different situation then high school. Lots of kids rose to the top of high school then go to “X” really good known name brand school and are just one of the kids or actually struggle (in a bad way), just to make it through but have that “name brand” Diploma.

I know lots of families that wanted their kids to go to other schools over ives etc so their kids would possibly fit in better academically and socially.

336

Our POTUS himself went to Wharton and even though not so impressed, still saw the value and made it happen for all of his children to attend U Penn or Georgetown.

“Perhaps the most important thing I learned at Wharton was not to be overly impressed by academic credentials,” Trump wrote in his 1987 book The Art of the Deal. “In my opinion, that degree doesn’t prove very much, but a lot of people I do business with take it very seriously, and it’s considered very prestigious. So all things considered, I’m glad I went to Wharton.”

337

This is where one really needs to know their kid. Driven kids with stats often excel at higher level places. Someone needs to be top of the top and it’s nice to see them reach their potential. They’ll do well anywhere, but they really thrive when they get the chance (if it’s affordable). These are the kids who pull their parents or teachers along - not run of the mill top kids.

Wishing your kid were in that group doesn’t make them fit in there. They pull. Pushed kids might do ok, but the stress level they have from doing so is awful.

Run of the mill top kids (remember, it’s “top kids,” so I am absolutely NOT dissing them) tend to do better where they fit in. It’s why I suggest pre-med wannabes be attend a school where both their SAT/ACT and GPA are in the Top 25% - unless they’d be in the Top 25% essentially anywhere - then they have choices and one ought to carefully consider that “fit” thing.

I have one of those driven kids and two run of the mill top kids. They are all equally as intelligent and great people to know - doing well in their chosen fields post college now. But two would not have cared to go to the school my driven lad chose. They loved where they went and did well. Driven lad did extremely well where he went becoming a top student there too.

I wouldn’t use Study Abroad to distinguish anything. Some kids want this and some don’t. School choice really doesn’t matter. Ditto with research, but different schools offer different amounts and types of research plus make it more/less accessible for undergrads so if a student is interested in it, use that as a criteria. Ask undergrads or faculty about opportunities that exist and how easy it is to get in - not admissions. Admissions will tell folks pretty much anything they think one wants to hear.

338

I’m not discounting anyone’s experience. I’m saying that for my kids, one of the Ivies or other more prestigious schools, would not have allowed my kids to take advantage of many of the opportunities offered because we simply could not have afforded it.

My son’s program at UofL included working with the Edward Kennedy Institute for the United States Senate Museum in Boston, creating interactive programs for high school students. He toured Washington D.C. where he got to meet Supreme Court Justices and leadership from the House and the Senate as well as many other senators and representatives. His 5 weeks in China included visits to Beijing, Shanghai, Xi’an, and courses in ancient Chinese history, Chinese contemporary politics, and Chinese culture. When he was in England, he got to sit in on a session of Parliament, where he saw Theresa May and Jeremy Corbin argue.

My daughter’s 5 weeks in China included 3 credit hours of class and a two-week trip up the Silk Road where she got to ride a camel in the Gobi Desert, climb the beginning of the Great Wall, and see the Rainbow Mountains. Everything was free except the flight. She’s been out to Cupertino working with Apple on an app for the iPads all the incoming freshman got. She has been to Pittsburgh, DC, and Seattle presenting papers and is headed to Montana in March to do the same. She’s going to China for two more weeks this summer to study art with the fellowship at UK that she is part of. Again, mostly free. She will also go to Costa Rica to do field work in environmental sustainability.

My older kids have fantastic relationships with their professors. My son, back from Laos, continues to go down to UofL to visit with one of his mentors there. My daughter at UK is on a first name basis with a couple of her profs who have given her excellent guidance and recommendations. I know when she gets ready to apply for grad school or whatever she wants to do, that they will jump through hoops for her.

By choosing the state schools that gave them the full rides, they were able to experience and participate in so much more than they would have otherwise. The almighty $$$ would have been hanging over their heads, preventing them from trying for these other opportunities. I’m not saying don’t try for any school that you want. Just know that amazing experiences can be had at many of the state schools.

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It was important enough for him that he used connections to transfer from Fordham, which he attended after he was rejected from USC. He made sure his kids attended “prestigious” colleges, because of his ideas of the “right” image would be for him in the fairly narrow world of NYC high-cost real estate, and the wealthy people of NYC during the 1990s.

So it was A, his personal perception, and B, it was within a fairly narrow set of industry, society, and location. 99.99% of all kids here will not be part of that particular set, and so this is irrelevant to them.

340

I think its important for students and families coming to this site for information, receive a balanced discussion and I provide one perspective of many differing opinions. Maybe I’m more vocal than some but when I see comments that are skewed, incorrect or biased, I’m going to respond to it based on my own experiences interviewing and hiring 100s of employees in the business world the last 30 years. When someone says that attending the UK broadens ones life like no ivy can, I see this as hyperbole and warrants a rebuttable. When someone says “where you go to college doesn’t matter at all”, I question this advice. When someone says that they absolutely knew little Suzy would be a NMF when she was in diapers (true CC claim) and is the reason they did not save any money for college, I’m not likely to sit back and treat this advice as gospel. I think getting many different perspectives on college admissions can make for a better informed decision down the road.