I’m going to suggest that this entire discussion about whether any given Ivy League University or a Big State University is more “broadening” is silly.
Seriously, nothing but silly.
Experience is broadening. Whether that experience is at ILU or BSU, or at a regional comprehensive or a community college or heck, a tour in the military or going straight into the workforce, it’s going to be broadening.
Yeah, the ways in which that broadening will be manifest will be different depending on which context the experiences occur, but I would suggest that two different individuals will experience different sorts of broadening in the exact same surroundings.
So like I said, the argument is silly. Please move on.
@socaldad2002 So the answer is, as I suspected, no. Those reading your posts need to know that. At least for me, that puts your posts into proper perspective.
“Ivy caliber” students are not clones of one another. They all thrive in different types of environments and schools. We need to respect that even if we don’t agree.
Agree with the general sentiment. This thread is turning into a “Why non-elite colleges are the better choice,” or “Why you should avoid T20 colleges” thread. Perhaps it’s the nature of the original question, but it’s becoming very one-sided and bordering on T20 bashing.
I don’t think students should avoid top schools… my D attended an OOS public school that ranks in the top 5 or 6 nationally (please no public school bashing) and is considered an academic collaborator with Duke. She had Duke students in her classes and vice versa.
I think if finances are not an issue and a top school is a good fit, then the student should attend. If, however, there are financial or fit concerns… there is nothing wrong with choosing a different school. These students have wonderful experiences.
The better choice is the one that meets the needs of the student and family.
Suggesting T20 schools aren’t worth the price premium ≠ bashing said T20 schools.
In fact, even saying that T20 schools are in some particular set of ways worse than, say, regional comprehensives wouldn’t be bashing them.
Bashing T20 schools might be something like claiming their existence is an actively bad thing for the continued health of the Republic (as one sees in the occasional op-ed), but if that’s been done in this thread, it hasn’t registered with me.
My son chose a “safety” school. He did not get into any reaches but did get into some matches. He chose it based on fit and location. He is thriving and has no regrets…
I attended an Ivy undergrad and then my state flagship medical school. And while I had a great undergrad experience, my Ivy education did not fundamentally alter my life path in any way, and as I have posted elsewhere, actually made it harder, not easier, for me to get into medical school. I was also no better prepared for medical school than my classmates from less-selective schools.
So now, even though we could afford a highly selective private college for our very high stats D19 (near-perfect GPA, likely NMSF, recruited athlete, etc.), we are only looking at lower-ranked schools in which she will qualify for merit so that she will have 529 funds left over for grad school, to study abroad, to enable her to do unpaid internships in the summers, etc.
I honestly don’t think that there is any material difference in the education between a T10 and and T20-50 (or maybe even T100) school. The T10s certainly have a few more bells and whistles than the lower-ranked schools, but the main difference is status and bragging rights, and none of those things are worth 100s of thousands of dollars to me.
Funny how the posters on this thread who actually attended Ivys or their equivalents are generally the ones saying that they aren’t worth the premium price tag for full-pay but not truly wealthy families, or even worse, for families who would incur significant debt to attend. It’s the ones (OK, really just one) who didn’t attend a highly selective school himself who is banging the drum the loudest about their perceived value.
I am continuously surprised at just how much some people here worry about the feelings of prestigious colleges. One would think that the President of Princeton is having difficulty falling asleep at night because somebody on CC wrote that they don’t think that it’s so great, or that the Chancellors of UPenn or UChicago are walking around with hurt feelings because some posters on CC think that they are really bad choices for students.
Seriously, people, the wealthiest and most popular colleges out there really don’t care that some people here bash T-20s, and neither should you. Even if 100 students decide not to apply to Harvard because of what they read here, there are still over 43,000 who will still apply.
There are colleges out there that desperately need support, but they don’t include colleges which have billions in endowments, and have 4 or 5 times as many qualified applicants as they can accept.
Which is why I annually give a small contribution to the graduate fellowship fund that paid my way for my Ivy League PhD, but I also annually give many times that amount to the foundation associated with the underfunded community college my AA came from, and somewhere in the middle to the public flagship I got my BA from.
Which I mention not only to state in term of my own dollars which types of institutions I believe are worth supporting, but also to point out that experiencing a community college, a big state school, and an Ivy aren’t mutually exclusive of each other. Some of us, when we compare them we really do know precisely whereof we speak.
Here is a story that answers the original question.
My D’s friend was accepted to three schools. She was full pay and money was not an issue. This student is now a senior in college.
School #1 was an Ivy League school
School #2 was a top ranked public school such as Michigan
School #3 was the honors college at a good public university
This student went to accepted students events at all three schools.
She didn’t love the Ivy…didn’t fit in socially and felt it was too intense academically.
She didn’t love the higher ranked public…she didn’t feel comfortable socially.
She attended the honors program at the lower ranked public. She felt comfortable socially…that was important to her. She is very happy and as far as academics are concerned…she is very appropriately challenged.
I am not sure why some have a difficult time accepting the decisions made by others. Nobody is diminishing top schools. Making a different choice doesn’t take anything away from Princeton…it’s still a top school.
You misunderstood me. I was not “feeling bad” for T20 or Ivies at all. I went to Ivies for both undergrad and grad and feel no need to defend them. I was just pointing out that the thread is drifting and becoming one-sided. When that occurs, it’s generally not particularly helpful anymore. (Though this frequently happens with all sorts of topics on CC.) Those with opposing views don’t even bother to engage/post on the thread anymore, and meaningful debate disappears.
@ProfSD I have not seen a single post “bash” T20s. When did providing anecdotes of students having excellent educational experiences and outcomes at schools outside T20s become “bashing”? When did providing anecdotes of unhappy or unsuccessful students at T20s (such students exist everywhere) become “bashing”?
I never really saw this as a debate…Ivy league and similar schools are some of the best in the world, and I would never dispute that. I saw this more as an opportunity to discuss some of the benefits of lower ranked schools (public or private).
I saw this as a chance to explain why a top student might not attend an Ivy, if finances were not an issue. That was the original question, so it makes sense that the responses will include the benefits of lower ranked, yet still good schools. We can do this without bashing.
I don’t think all schools are created equal. My younger kid who was an “Ivy caliber” student would have been miserable at her siblings much lower ranked school. There were too many parties and the school was filled with kids who were not particularly academic. That being said, the school worked out beautifully for my older D, and she went on to an Ivy League grad school (yes, that sounds strange).
I am probably immune to debates, as I am usually the one who is on the receiving end of the bashing. I always find myself defending the fact that despite my D attending a public university, she still developed close ties with her profs, is still good friends with them, had discussion based classes, very smart students, etc. Nobody understands how annoying it is to be asked on a regular basis…Does your daughter have trouble finding her academic peers?
I am just relieved that this discussion didn’t necessarily involve public versus private schools ?.
When families spend $70,000 for schools such as Duke, Vandy, Yale, etc…they want to know that they are spending their money wisely. They want confirmation that they are getting something that can’t be found elsewhere. If a family saved for years and their kids are happy and doing well at these top schools, that’s a wonderful accomplishment and money well spent.
It doesn’t mean that the same type of top student can’t have a wonderful experience at Ohio State honors. Will it be the exact same experience as an Ivy? No…but the student didn’t want that exact experience or they would have gone (money was not a factor). Can that student be very happy and confident that they made the right choice…for them? Yes.
I am not taking anything away from top schools. Rather, I am trying to explain that they are not a fit for everybody. And attending one is not necessarily a direct path to success…there are too many variables and problems in life…and they often get in the way regardless of school.
This doesn’t sound strange to me at all. In fact it sounds like the most sensible plan for any high stats kid who knows they are going to go to grad school. My bil and I were talking about it at thanksgiving. If you go to grad school your college ceases to “matter,” if it did at all (I’d argue there are still sectors that name schools matter). Some of the smartest people I know did under grad at state schools and grad at the top school for that field (often an ivy). Part of the reason they got into that top grad for their field was that they went to an undergrad where they could get top top grades and be a tippy top student. Not a bad plan at all.