My older daughter was not a high stats kid in HS… she was an average B student who played sports (not recruited). She attended a regular college and went on to an Ivy League grad school… and excelled.
My other D was the high stats kid who would have been miserable at that school… for many reasons.
But I do agree with you…
If a college degree is only a means to an end than maybe it doesn’t matter to you.
However many feel that an excellent 4 year undergraduate degree is something of value that will stay with the student for the rest of their lives no matter if they chose to go to graduate school or not
I look at college as the building blocks to a successful career and life and the period of 18-21 is a very transformative time in a young persons life. Hardly meaningless IMO.
To some, an excellent undergraduate degree can only be obtained from 1 of 20 schools. For others, its 40 schools. For still others its a higher number. And for some people (higher percentage of people on this site) the number is less than 20. I think deep down inside there are some people here for whom that number is 1. YMMV.
One sided discussions are not sustainable. If a discussion is one sided it will fade away (typically quickly). If it continues, its not one sides.
Idea that Top20s are bashed here is incredibly comical.
It’s also comical that certain posters who shall remain nameless think an excellent undergraduate education and transformative 4 year experience can only be had at around 20 schools despite not having ever attended any of those 20 schools.
An excellent and transformative education is one where a student grows and finds happiness and success…emotionally, academically, professionally, socially etc. It’s not only academics and internships… it’s stepping out of their bubble and meeting kids who grew up without electricity for months at a time yet still managed to get a 31 on the ACT with minimal prep. Are they my kids academic peers despite my kids much higher scores? Absolutely!!! What about that girl at the top LAC who had a baby her sophomore year? Yes… true story…kids at top schools get pregnant. This is reality… and is part of that overall learning experience.
Some top students/high stats have confidence issues and would fail on many levels if placed at the wrong school. The right school… which may not be a top 20… might do amazing things for that kids emotional health.
We can’t put people into neat little boxes.
And there are an equal number of posters who didn’t attend their in-state public universities who didn’t see the impacted majors, overcrowding, in flexibility of changing majors, classes taught by TAs, limited career counseling, etc.
Unfortunately not all colleges will give you the same experience. Really depends on what your end goals are and what value you place on getting a college “education” versus a degree.
With that said, I do like this balanced discussion and provocative thread which should give many, food for thought when making these important decisions about which college is right for them.
@socaldad2002 nails it. So, if parents do their job right each student should find themselves in an environment that they will flourish in. That may be a State Flagship, an honors college, a LAC, or a private research university, a community college, or even a trade school.
If parents do what is so often recommended on this site there can never be an unpopular decision. If students have a reach/match/safety list of colleges that they love and can afford it’s simple a question of where they’ll feel most comfortable.
I remember when DD20 began thinking about college in the 7th - 8th grade and a program took a group on a 3 day college tour. I still have the snapchat that she sent me with her eyes wide open saying “when you wanted a ‘name’ school but you really like another school”. Her idea of going to a name school came from her brother DD09 attending an Ivy and seeing how eyebrows raised, people were impressed and of course she spend years visiting her brother on campus. And don’t forget the sibling comparison that many do., “Are you going to be just like your big brother and go to an Ivy”? Her stats are pretty high and she does have T20 - 100 and beyond schools that we are awaiting RD decisions for. While she does go back and forth she has made the statement, “Just because Jojo went to an Ivy doesn’t mean I have to, I just want to be happy”. Honestly, where she ends up will depend on many factors but my main concern is that she is in a place where she is happy, feels at home, finds her people (not limited to only intellectuals), is accepted for who she is, theater friends, dance friends, friends of diverse socio-economic backgrounds, where she can grow emotionally, spiritually, socially etc. She is also very driven and hard on herself which often stresses me so I’m hoping that it’s also a place that will not wind her tighter but where she can let her hair down a bit. I’m impatiently waiting.
Top whatever private schools are not exempt from such issues. Try changing into CS at CMU after enrolling, for example. Or note that Cornell requires engineering students to meet GPA minimums greater than 2.0 for many of its majors. Even Harvard has at least one restricted major.
TAs are common at the top whatever private research universities, using the same model as public research universities.
^At which top private research universities do TAs actually teach classes? My S, a sophomore, works as a TA, but he only answers questions during office hours and grades homework and exams.
Examples off the top of my head - Vandy, CMU, Stanford.
@socaldad2002 My D attends a flagship and I mentor college students so I have a basis to compare. I also realize that all schools aren’t the same, so your sweeping generalizations are just not helpful at all. My D, for example, has never experienced any of that. And she’s never not gotten a course she wanted to take. Most students without early registration privileges at schools across the board can’t say that. Please stop the elite or else fearmongering.
You really need to check out your in-state publics. They are not all the same. Some better than others at a number of things. And for some, the issues you note really aren’t issues though they can be at others. Definitely a stereotype for many that those schools hold classes in football stadiums. Tough to overcome. I know several people who visited to in-state publics with their kids expecting to hate them. But often they came back impressed. Some kids sent their kids there and others didn’t. FWIW, I went to one of the biggest in-state publics of all and have a kid who just graduated from the same. And a daughter currently going to an out of state flagship.
No doubt many people believe that top 20s (or 40s or 50s or 10s or whatever number you prefer) provide educations and the rest provide degrees. Just not everyone’s view or experience.
That’s why research into schools is so important. Some colleges do indeed have issues with meeting demand for some classes. Other colleges limit enrollment by major to better manage demand. I think most have GPA minimums by major (2.0 is not a high bar is it?).
Use of TAs varies by college. Stanford fields a range of four “TA” types that recognizes that some graduate students are on a teaching track.
https://adminguide.stanford.edu/chapter-10/subchapter-2/policy-10-2-1
“And there are an equal number of posters who didn’t attend their in-state public universities who didn’t see the impacted majors, overcrowding, in flexibility of changing majors, classes taught by TAs, limited career counseling, etc.”
That’s a gross over generalization of public schools and by extension private schools if you think they also don’t use TAs or have great counseling or can change majors easily. It is very hard, if not impossible to change into engineering or cs at CMU, Cornell, Columbia, schools ucbalumnus and itsgettingreal mentioned. I attended a private and public flagship so it’s not like I have a bias either way.
Worth remembering: For the majority of college-going high school graduates (which is just a bare majority of all high school graduates), the options are much more limited than this—for various reasons, often well beyond the parents’ control, the only reasonable option is the most local college, with fit not even remotely a consideration.
Depends on what you mean by “teach classes”.
At research universities (public and private), it is common for the primary instructor to be a faculty member, but have TAs for discussion and lab sections, particularly for larger lower level courses. Indeed, TA experience may be required for PhD degree requirements.
Or, “fit” is defined by affordability and ability to fit school around other commitments like work and family.
IMO, affordability is table-stakes. That may leave you with but one option. Up to the individual to take that option or pass.
On TAs teaching: One thing to note is that at many institutions, a faculty member will be the instructor of record but the actual teaching is done by TAs under faculty supervision.
And yes, TAs teach classes at Ivies and such, whether as instructors of record or not.
The only class of institutions where you’re highly likely to have a vanishingly small to zero number of TAs teaching classes is those where there are no graduate programs (or where the graduate programs are entirely professional degrees), and even some of those have undergraduate teaching assistants, though they’re much less likely to be doing the actual teaching.