<p>Perhaps I’m worrying needlessly, but now that we are narrowing down our list of schools to apply to, I feel unsure about my sons choices.
My son is loving biology and would like to continue that in college as well as other sciences. I don’t think he has any interest in being a doctor. I’ve read over and over how crushing the sciences can be in better colleges and their intent to weed out students pretty quickly.
If my son can get into a top 20 or so school, how do I know he is capable of the work required in the sciences?
I’ve read about so many kids being blindsided by the difiiculty, I’m just wondering if we should concentrate on lesser schools. Maybe I’m just over thinking this.</p>
<p>You need to actually understand what weeding entails. There are two types of weeding, the weeding which Brown is known for, and the weeding in advising and classes.</p>
<p>Weeding is basically making classes really hard so most everyone fails. If your son is so unmotivated to ask this question on CC himself, chances are he’d lose motivation in a top school. No, I do not draw false conclusions, I am a master of insight.</p>
<p>Secondly, do not associate such lowly top 20 schools with weeding (excluding #19 Brown which loves to weed ofc). Weeding is reserved for schools who cherish their percentages who go to Wall St., Med. School, and Law School.</p>
<p>First off, I have no idea what the hell is up with isk82live. Seems P.O.'d at something. Probably got weeded out of something.</p>
<p>Second, yes, most “intro” science classes for majors (mathematics included) are purposely made difficult to “weed” out the weak students. Lots of work, difficult tests, little to no curve. There’s a reason they do this: they don’t want these students hanging around for a couple of years before they reach the more difficult upper division classes and are unable to do the work.</p>
<p>If you can’t pass the lower level classes, chances are you won’t pass the upper level classes.</p>
<p>Schools don’t care who goes on to grad school (when designing their curriculum for intro classes like this). They just don’t want to be bogged down with fringe students on upper division classes. You need to study your butt off and work hard to get a BS in one of the hard sciences (engineering too). They aren’t for everyone.</p>
<p>My advice?: ignore any advice from an insulting and arrogant ■■■■■ like poster who sounds like a kid in HS.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s any way you can know ahead of time how your DS will do in the intro classes. Besides preparation, motivation will be key. That changes a lot between HS and college. I base this on my experience with my DD who is about to start sophomore year at college. She is way more motivated in college than in HS and more willing to put in the work in areas she is interested in.</p>
<p>Mu suggestion would be to investigate colleges that have the potential major he is interested in and are large enough to offer other majors he might be interested in as back up, in case he changes his mind for any reason (difficulty being just one).</p>
<p>My DD was set on double majoring in subjects I had second thoughts about (but I didn’t say anything! this was the hard part). In her college search, I was always checking to see the variety of majors offered at the schools she was applying to. Freshman year, she took intro classes in what she thought would be her double major topics and struggled (despite caring more and studying more than in HS). Changed her mind on her own and by second semester declared a completely different major in something she is much better at, comes easier and (IMO) is more marketable. Best part was that she figured this out on her own. (BTW - the intro classes also counted as part of her breadth requirements and her take was that “these will be my hobby, not my career.”)</p>
<p>I wouldn’t worry about the “weed out” situation. Your DS will figure out on his own how committed he is to a topic/major and how hard he is willing to work to make it happen.</p>
<p>In my experience, most students “weeded out” could do the upper division work, sometimes rather easily. But the college that begins with 120 potential pre-meds knows that it can only full support 35 or so and expect to get 90-100% admissions to med school. At my alma mater (where I was a non-pre-med with 120 would-be pre-meds in first-year biology, I would guess that 85 of them would be doctors (and darn good ones) today if they had gone to a second-tier public rather than #1 LAC. But the school had/has a 90-100% “acceptance” rate. </p>
<p>So-called 'top" schools care VERY MUCH about who they have to support in getting to grad and professional schools. It increases their workload mightily, and they don’t want to soil their reputations.</p>
<p>You can suggest that he do what I did – prepare for two different majors, one of which is not in the sciences.</p>
<p>This is not a criticism of your son’s ability (or mine). It’s just a reflection of the reality that biology is a very competitive major because it’s full of pre-meds. Sometimes, people who like biology but do not plan to go to medical school find that they cannot (or do not want to) deal with the intense competition.</p>
<p>So a question for your son to consider is what he might like to major in instead if biology doesn’t work out for him. And can he take the prerequisite courses for both majors as a freshman? That’s what I did. I took the prerequisites for both the biology and psychology majors so that I would have options. As it turned out, I chose biology. But it was nice to have an alternative, and I enjoyed my psychology courses (some of which fulfilled general education requirements, too).</p>
<p>You can also tell the naysayers that there is a life after the biology major. After a few false starts doing other things, I have had a very interesting career as a science writer and editor.</p>
<p>Here’s a thought: just because your son can get into a top 20 school, that doesn’t mean he has to attend a top 20 school. Merit scholarships can be much larger at smaller schools, opportunities for lab assistanceships and research can be greater with less competition, and classes maybe not so much cutthroat. What’s more important to HIM, vs you: the top 20 school or the biology major? </p>
<p>As for weeding, I personally think it can be a good thing and best done early. My daughter is just finishing her first graduate semester in Physician Assistant. Many, many of her classmates are flunking out of the program next week because they could not pass human anatomy and phisiology, which involved learning the entire human body and its functions in two months. The school did it’s best to help them, even dropping the score needed to pass (scarey thought, since these would be people making vital health decisions…). The slow students have held back the rest of the class, who had to be taught at the lower scorers’ level.</p>
<p>These are kids who are now three years into a degree plan which will now give them a BS in “health science”. They’d have been better off weeded out as freshmen when they could have spent the last two years preparing for a more useful degree.</p>
<p>It also depends on what you see as “weeding” and success in college. Will your son be discouraged and drop Bio if he has a C in an intro class or will he love the subject enough to stick with it?</p>
<p>So you want to pick a school where the science classes are not that tough because you don’t think your son can hack it, right? My advice would be to first discuss this concept with him, I’m not sure if your being a realist or just a worrywart but he just might take offense,especially if he sees himself as a top student applying only to the most elite. How would he feel about a b- or c’s?
Visit the schools and talk to the students and profs about the competitive environment. Ratemyprofessor also have some great insight about specific classes and teachers from the student perspective. Is every top school competitive and cut throat in the sciences- others who have done the research would be better to answer the fine points of each school. Also post on the individual forums for specifics.
If you were trying to figure out a way for your s to get the highest gpa and mcat score for med school by handpicking the best undergrad program for this goal or unless there is a good reason to worry, like emotional instability, imho, your s will and should forge his own path on his own studies.
Yes he may want to avoid the most competitive weeder out programs if he loves science but is just not that good at it but if he has the aptitude and loves the subject matter he should be able to work hard enough to stay in a program.</p>
<p>There is virtually no one at top 20 school who can’t hack it s/he applies him/herself, provided s/he has the necessary math background. Might not get an "A’, but that isn’t really the goal, is it?</p>
<p>I suggest dividing your concern into two different questions. The first one would be, “if my child is accepted at a top-20 school, do I need to worry about failure?” The answer to that question is NO. Just check the retention rates at the top-twenty schools - they are all above 95%. Those who leave do not leave because they can’t cut it academically. They leave for other reasons almost always. The second question is, “will my child succeed in X major (fill in any blank) in a top-20 school if accepted?” The answer to that is “maybe.” The point of college is to explore a variety of options in order to find the best fit between passion and ability. There are a significant number of college majors for which there is NO high school introduction. The best choice for any student is a school (top twenty or not) which encourages exploration and provides for that in the first two years of college through distribution requirements or a core curriculum. Strong mentoring and academic advisers who know your child and can offer guidance in that exploratory phase are key. Most students who graduate from top-twenty schools have found a passion and have laid the groundwork for further success in graduate or professional school. The personal growth that takes place over four years is extraordinary. Key is not what the student wants to do going in but whether the school offers an environment for exploration that establishes graduate success.</p>
<p>Weeding? Think brutal. It’s so not about motivation or dedication. In my dau’s pre-med classes (great LAC,) tests were on material not covered in lectures, readings or labs. Someone characterized this as being able to apply knowledge from one area or example or process to another. (And get the right answer.) There is no mercy for kids who simply want a bio (or math) major. It’s common to get a C or worse. </p>
<p>I’m with Mini on this. They don’t weed to lower the number of kids in jr-sr classes, per se. It’s so the kids applying to med school are the cream of their crop. They’re looking for a stat: how many of their seniors were accepted to at least one of their top 3 med school choices. They rarely tell you how many kids started as pre-med or bio in freshman year and made it to that point.</p>
<p>So, OP, the question may be: what are your son’s analytical and reasoning skills? Can he successfully apply knowledge to entirely new situations? Is he willing to consider another major, if this one doesn’t pan out? Or accept the early C’s and keep going?</p>
<p>Btw, the next question is: how can you tell a lesser school isn’t going to do this same darned thing? It is not just the top 20 or top 40.</p>
<p>Let him consider several reach, match and safety schools. A “reach” is one that he may be in the lower 1/4 or 1/2 of the student body of- gpa and test scores. A match is one he fits into with the majority of the students. A safety is one where his stats are far enough above the 75th %ile that he is likely (but never guaranteed) to be admitted. </p>
<p>Schools only admit students they feel can do the work and be successful at their school. Therefore you don’t have to worry about his being able to do the work at any school that admits him. He could choose courses that he is not well prepared for and they may be difficult for him, that’s why schools have academic advisors.</p>
<p>The top/elite schools may be a match according to his stats but are never to be considered a sure thing- there are simply too many top students applying to limited spaces available. There are far too many students who are of elite school caliber to go to them. You will find those students at many schools well below the “top 20”, especially at their flagship public U’s.</p>
<p>When choosing schools it is important to consider “fit”- all sorts of things besides the academics. He will do his best if he is happy in the school’s environment. You also need to consider finances. There is no reason to apply to schools (it costs time and money to do so) where the financial aid available is too great a burden for the family finances.</p>
<p>PS- don’t worry about the “weed out” science courses. If he is truly interested in biology he will be interested enough to study hard to learn the material and do well. Likewise with chemistry- if it isn’t his thing and he isn’t after the almighty gpa he will do well enough for his biology major. You may have him check to see how many different biology, chemistry et al introductory level courses are offered at schools he likes. If it is only one then all of the majors and premeds will be in the same course, if 2 or 3 people will sort themselves out according to ability and interest.</p>
<p>Better than guessing, try to meet up with some sci kids when you visit. Or see if there are sci kids on any of the admissions-related blogs. If he’s smart, agree, he will succeed. But, we’re specifically broaching the subject of tough math-sci classes at schools that weed. It’s akin to the grade deflation question: which is better, in the long run? A degree with a lower GPA in the major at a college known to be rigorous or a better major gpa elsewhere? In the end, what’s right for him is what’s right for him. Check course catalogs to see how extensive classes are and for profs’ backgrounds, research interests and any research funding.</p>
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<p>Yes, and the “applies him/herself” is the key. Lots of very bright kids go through high school with As and get high marks on SAT/ACTs, without ever having to really stretch themselves intellectually and engage in the hard, concentrated work that it takes to really master a subject. They get into college, where the strategies that served them well in high school - read the material, do the homework, sort of pay attention in class, psych out what’s going to be asked on the test, cram for the test - are no longer sufficient.</p>
<p>This is true not only in the selective colleges and universities, but also in many of the so-called “lower tier” schools. That’s why their freshman-to-sophomore retention is so low. They admit a ton of students with ACTs in the lower 20s and expect them to adapt to doing college-level work, with college-level expectations. Because these kids were already marginal academically in high school, most don’t make it - unlike the more selective schools, where most do eventually make the adjustment and figure out what they need to do to at least get by.</p>
<p>^ agree. And, in hs, these quality kids are on the top of the heap. In a competitive college, they can be “average.” What brought them attention from hs teachers (the smart perception, the extra work on a paper) - well, the bar is raised. Most bright kids make the adjustment. Absolutely. Mastering that next tier of competition is one reason we send them to college in the first place. (Or, should be, IMO.)</p>
<p>And, that’s one reason admissions is holistic- to get an idea of the overall maturity, judgment, and ability to tackle challenges -things that can often be gleaned from ECs, awards, and in LoRs- even the quality of the essay. With very rare exceptions, competitive colleges take kids they feel highly confident have the ability to succeed.</p>