DILEMMA: Expensive Ivy vs. State Flagship-- I need your thoughts on student debt

Transfer Students
1

<p>I’ve had my heart set on Cornell for a while now. I love everything about it–the breadth and depth of academics, the blend of theory and application, the aesthetics, Cayuga Lake, the wine trail, etc. So yesterday I received my financial aid award: $0.00. It wasn’t a surprise, but it was still sobering to actually hold the paper that stated I get nothing. We have some assets but my parents are both teachers and are nearing retirement.</p>

<p>I spent the entire night with my TI-86 and some loan calculating websites plugging in numbers. I fully admit: I hadn’t thought through the full cost of the private loans I’d have to take for Cornell (after the 25 year repayment period, some were as high as $275,000 for an initial loan of $77K). I was literally sick to my stomach; I felt like vomiting. I thought that, given my intended career choice, I could manage the loan. I didn’t fully take into account the magnitude of the interest over such a long period–my bad. So now I must decide between my dream school and my state’s flagship. Here are the numbers:</p>

<p>**Cornell **
Sticker price: (~$49,200 * 3 years) = $147,600
My parents are giving me $20,000 per year = $60,000
My assets + anticipated savings from working 3 years = ~$10,000</p>

<p>Basically, I would have to take out ~ $77,600 in loans at an interest rate that’s variable between 4.44% and 8.72%. I took the time to number-crunch and the actual cost of the loan with interest, over a 300 month payment period, is between $170,000 - $250,000… For a $77K undergrad loan!!! F***ing ridiculous.</p>

<p>**University of Illinois **
Instate Sticker price: (~$26,700 * 3 years) = $80,000
My parents are still giving me $20,000 per year = $60,000
My assets + anticipated savings from working 3 years = ~$10,000</p>

<p>So at U of I, I would only need ~ $10,000 in loans spread over 3 years, which I could comfortably cover without taking private loans (i.e. Federal Stafford unsubsidized)</p>

<p>If all goes as planned, I’ll be going to medical school, which (conservatively) will cost $200,000+. </p>

<p>My questions are:

  1. What would you do if you were in my position? (I’ve pretty much made up my mind where I’m going, I just want some of your opinions)
  2. What is your idea of reasonable undergraduate debt?
  3. Does it depend on one’s proposed career plans?
  4. How large are your undergrad loans going to be? (If you’re comfortable answering) </p>

<p>Thanks for taking the time to read this.</p>

2

<ol>
<li><p>Because you are premed, I would go to the cheapest school, as your prerequisite courses will be no different anywhere else: O-chem is O-chem at Harvard and Pima Community College, the only difference is the price tag. </p></li>
<li><p>Too subjective. I do, however, not-so-tentatively suggest that the debt you face after you finish at Cornell crosses the threshold into absurdity. </p></li>
<li><p>Does what depend on your career plans? I assume you refer to the debt in question two (2), and the answer is an unequivocal yes, however, I believe your education will not be appreciably better at Cornell and thus reject the question.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>QED: Go to the University of Illinois. Your interests as a prospective physician will be served equally at both institutions, so go for the cheaper of the two. I do not speak for the consummate education Cornell offers, as it is more than likely superior to that of UI, but your prime directive, as it were, is successfully completing your prerequisites for medical school and focusing on the MCATs; all else is (or should be) subordinate to and serve that directive, which includes saving money for medical school.</p>

3

<p>Caillebotte, I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate situation. I am basically in the same boat as I was accepted to Columbia University this year as a transfer but I was awarded zero financial aid due to documentation issues. I would be looking at 150k in loans to finance my education at Columbia. It is quite possibly one of the worst feelings in the world to know that you can’t afford an Ivy League education despite the fact that you were accepted - it’s like finding out that Santa isn’t real.</p>

<p>If I were you, I’d stay at your state university. It is a reputable school and if you do well there, there is no reason to believe that you can’t go to a phenomenal medical school. The constant knowledge of that debt will loom over you for a long time and that is absolutely no way to go through life. If you are still thinking about Cornell at this point, after calculating your loan repayment, you must be suffering from “Ivy Vision” - a medicinal term for a person who is physically and emotionally impaired due to excess elation as a result of acceptance into the Ivy League (trust me, I suffered the same symptoms for a long time before I came to). I urge you to really, really step outside of yourself and look at things from another perspective: Do you really want to be that much in debt? Think about all the sacrifices and restrictions you’d have to make if you go to Cornell; think about the luxuries and flexibility of mind you’d have if you stay at UI. Plus you have medical school to think about. Is this amount of debt worth it for an undergraduate education if you have medical school in mind? My answer is no.</p>

<p>Go to UI, kick butt there, and go to Harvard/Hopkins/wherever for medical school. You’ll have the luxury to do so.</p>

<p>lol can you tell I’ve thought about this whole thing as well? hah good luck and I hope you make the right decision for you and your future.</p>

4

<p>Caille, I don’t think very many people would advise you to take on 80k worth of debt. Actually I don’t think anyone will. Good luck with your decision though. </p>

<p>I’d go to UI.</p>

<p>40k over four years - MAX.</p>

<p>Well maybe but it takes a long time to get out of med school…</p>

<p>0.</p>

5

<p>part of this depends on your medical specialty. You might be able to justify the expense if you had visions of being a subspecialist. However, the problem is that the future of our healthcare delivery system is uncertain. Your income will be controlled by either the federal government or by insurance carriers. When students come to me for advice about going to medical school, I try to talk them out of it completely. All the major reasons for wanting to become a physician are essentially gone. I try to talk them out of it and see their reaction - if they HAVE TO become a physician, if its in their bones, if they will never be happy unless they become a doctor, then I advise them to go ahead. It also depends on whether you want a career in academic medicine. If you plan on teaching and doing research at a big name instituition, then your undergraduate and medical school pedigree may count for something. However, if your goal is to be in private practice, then it matters little where you go to medical school and matters little where you go as an undergraduate. I think it is more important to do well in terms of GPA and MCAT. I would also try to shadow a doctor as see what his/her life is like. Private practice is esentially piecework - like working in a sweatshop. The more patients you see, the more you make. Medicine has become too much a business and less a professional calling these days. I spent 5 years as a philosophy/psychology double major at a state university in NY. I receieved a master’s degree in psychology. I then returned to take some undergraduate courses that I needed to apply to medical school while working part time jobs in the medical field. One of my best friends from medical school graduated from Cornell. We both ended up at the same osteopathic medical school. We are both board certified family practitioners. I concentrate on alternative therapeutics and he is conventional. I am 55 years old and I am still paying off the last bit of my medical school loans. My son will attend college in September and after I pay off the last of my loans, I will start to set aside money for his studies. I make less than my friend since my chosen approach is to spend more time with patients by practicing holistic medicine. I financed my entire education with student loans as my parents never finished elementary school. I have wanted to be a physician since I was 7 years old and I always comforted myself by telling myself that I was “following my bliss”. Now I advise people to follow their bliss but to consult a financial planner as well! Ultimately, your patients are most concerned with whether you can help them, not where you went to school. They select you these days based mostly on their insurance coverage and not where you went to school. Wherever you go as an undergraduate expand your intellectual horizons beyond your pre-medical studies- college is not a technical school, medical school is! I don’t regret my path in life - but if I could I would redo the way I borrowed to achieve my lifetime goal. I hope this helps.</p>

6

<p>Caille, go to IU.</p>

<p>I know what you are thinking “OMG HE’S SUPPOSED TO SUPPORT THE IVY’s!!!”</p>

<p>1) You are doing premed, a degree that won’t matter because only your MD and residency matter in terms of making $. </p>

<p>2) Even if I got into Cornell and still received no fin. aid I probably wouldn’t go either.</p>

<p>3) If an ivy fanatic is telling you not to go to an ivy, then I think you should listen.</p>

7

<p>some other thoughts on this issue - consider a military option. Several of my classmates did this and the government paid for their medical education! Downside is that for every year they give you, you must payback one year of service. This means that they will use you as a general medical officer for up to 4 years before you can select a residency. So it delays your future by 4 years which isn’t that bad - you come out with only the undergrad loans and you draw a major’s salary while serving. The other option is to apply to medical school, get accepted and ask to defer your acceptance for one year as you live with your parents and work a job to pay down some of the undergrad loan. That loan will then be deferred while you are in med school. You could also not apply for 2 years and work to pay down debt - maybe in a medically related job. The other possibliity is a weird one - go to med school overseas! Historically this was an option for graduates who didn’t have the grades for an American medical school. I predict it will become a path in the future for financial reasons and not academic reasons. So with the military option and the delayed acceptance or delayed application or foreign study options you can have your ivy education and control some future costs. I think that if I had to do it over again, I would have chosen the military option. One of my classmates from medical school is still in the Navy - he made a career of it. He is a rehab specialist and was recently promoted to the rank of commander. He doesn’t have to worry about running an office and will have a military pension when he retires. He can then go into private practice if he so chooses.</p>

8

<p>If you’re really serious about med school, U of I is the only reasonable choice. Do remember that even applying for med school is an expensive endeavor. MCATs, plus 10-20 applications, plus interviews, etc.</p>

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<p>Since you are trying to go to medical school I highly recommend going to the state university because you will not have alot of debt to worry about when your graduate. Therefore, this allows you to get into medical the same year or earlier since you won’t have to worry about repaying your debt as you will be if you went to Cornell.</p>

<p>I say a reasonable amount of debt is 15~20k after you graduate. When I graduate I’ll have at most 10k debt but thats the worse case, most likely I’ll have considerably less debt than 10k.</p>

<p>If you really want to go to Cornell then you should talk to the financial aid office at Cornell. However, if you know that you won’t get any financial aid because of how high your parent’s income and asset levels are then I say go for the state university. </p>

<p>I mean I would try every possibility since seeing Cornell is a school you like. Otherwise if you still won’t get any financial aid then the state university is the way to go.</p>

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<p>Here’s a thought. You indicated that you would be three years at Cornell. So, I assume you are a rising Sophomore. I would go to your state school for one more year and get as many of your pre-med courses out of the way. This fall I would apply to Rice. Great school for pre-med. Some would argue that it is compatible with the Ivy’s. I would offer that it’s focus on undergraduate education is most similiar to Princeton. Anyway, run your numbers and you will see the savings. If you live off campus you will easy find very afortable housing, which many students report saves significant dollars over on-campus housing and food plans. Next I would apply for state residency as soon as I could. I would make use of the largest medical center in the world right next door to the campus, doing research and making valuable contacts for that medical school application. Then, if all goes well with one’s education, I would apply to Baylor Medical School. Baylor is located in that same complex where hopefully you have been doing research. Baylor is one of the top medical schools in the country, and offers in-state tution that you will easy be able to afford.
Hope this info gives you something to think about.</p>

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<p>You can always go to Cornell for med school.</p>

12

<p>Thanks for the responses everyone.</p>

<p>drdom: I actually was considering the 4 year military option, however, I thought they wanted physicians after they completed their residency. I know they offer loan repayment programs (as does the NHSC) with a reasonable salary. I have clinical experience and am currently shadowing two EM physicians-- they echo your sentiments about avoiding medicine. Yet, I am committed to this path. I am not inerested in academic medicine, so I dont need to go to Cornell (i.e. develop an academic petigree). I’m going to try to lower my debt as much as possible and thus (hopefully) have a decent lifestyle as a physician.</p>

<p>heartofthecity: I empathize with your situation, where are you thinking of going? I would much rather have been rejected. I know what it feels like to be rejected from a great school and the closure is wonderful. Rejection means “You’re not good enough. Period. End of discussion.” But getting accepted and not being able to afford the COA is a sickening feeling.</p>

<p>I really wanted to study in an intellectually concentrated atmosphere. U of I, though an excellent school, will seem like high school part II. I went to a suburban Chicago HS that send 100+ people to UIUC every year. I think my concerns about the lack of a scholarly atmosphere are certainly well founded. I don’t know if it will be difficult to forge for myself a classically liberal education at Illinois but I’ll try.</p>

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<p>the military does try to recruit doctors after their residency - hell I still get post cards from them! But call them and you’ll see that they also offer support during medical school. If you are interested, the Navy will put you out to sea. Another friend of mine was a ship’s doc for part of his duty. Let us know what you ultimately decide - good luck!</p>

14

<p>Caillebotte, you are extremely smart and dedicated no matter where you decide to go you are going to succeed. The only difference between Cornell and UI is that you will have to work harder to get the great liberal-arts education that you want. Cornell may be a better school but it’s not worth the extra money. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

15

<p>Caillebotte- </p>

<p>I am in almost the exact same position: currently at my flagship state, accepted to a great private school I can’t afford, and on the pre-med track. It’s a terrible choice to have to make. Objectively, the choice seems clear: stick with the less expensive school. But the choice has so much more depth than just that. This is life, the only one you’ve got. If you’re like me and not happy with the place you’re at, it’s hard to know you’ll be there 3 more years before you enter into the brutality of med school. Undergrad is supposed to be about intellectual development and should be a broadening experience, where you learn more about yourself than (in the pre-med case) academics that you will not need later on. While it is impossible to ignore the financial factor, at the same time, analyze the situation personally and subjectively. You don’t want to regret. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the support Bourne, drdom, and jwlstn. Thanks for the comments everyone else.</p>

<p>I’ve decided to attend U of I next year. It was the only rational decision, but regardless, I’m incredibly bitter. U of I is a faceless degree-mill whose maxim is ‘quantity not quality,’ however, I’m going to have to suck it up and make the best of it.</p>

<p>crixx: I couldn’t agree more. Undergrad is the time for intellectual development. It’s difficult to fashion a curriculum that has classic, scholastic breadth and depth when one must wade through a bureaucracy designed for 30K undergraduates—but—I still think it’s possible. I disagree with wayward_trojan’s hyperbole, but I get the point he was trying to make. Most of the peers might not be Ivy League-caliber, but self-edification is still possible (especially if one makes a concerted effort to have discussions with professors). Anyway, I empathize with your situation. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Caille buddy - wish you luck caillie and you really made the right decision…rooting for you dawwwwg</p>

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<p>

Thanks man, it means a lot.</p>

<p>I really hope you get one of those last Dartmouth spots. I’m pulling for you. You’ll do awesome wherever you are.</p>

19

<p>Caillebotte The way I survived at a large state university was to be both a psychology and philosophy major. Psych had hugh classes but the philosophy department was small - only 8 of us graduated and we had our ceremony off campus at a professor’s house. I’m not saying that you should be a philosophy major but find your niche there and create your own “life of the mind”. Also, as you progress through your undergraduate experience you’ll expand beyond the campus and find other interests to nurture you - you may also find you’d like to transfer. Wait and see what happens. Good luck to you.</p>

20

<p>Good luck. You’re transferring in as a sophomore right? Would you want to try again? Any reason why they gave you so little aid? </p>

<p>Is it Cornell or bust for you or do you still want the UG experience regardless of where it is?</p>