<p>No one sees the trend. Communities use to allow corporal punishment. The majority of students never needed such punishment. Kids were respectful. Now, teachers and administration barely has any flexibility in maintaining discipline in the schools. I'm not saying that the school should have unlimited power to expel a kid because of anything or everything they do off campus, but they most definitely should have some say so. And yes, I would love to see corporal punishment back in the schools. It will never happen, but I wish it did. A ruler across the knuckles does wonders. Parents can't punish without someone yelling "Child Abuse". Schools are being challenged. No wonder so many kids wind up in trouble, on the streets, or in prison.</p>
<p>A school in our state had a student/athlete (Football player), who bullied another kid in school. Happen to be another football player. The coach decided to take matters into his own hands. Told the kid that for the remaining 4 days of practice, he was going to do absolutely nothing except RUN, Pushups, and wind sprints. After the 1st day doing this, the kid went home and told his parents. Parents went ballistic and complained to the school about the harsh treatment the coach was putting on the kid. They addressed the coach too. The coach said that part of being on a team was discipline and learning to work with others. Bullying another kid was unacceptable. He said; the kid either does the remaining 3 days of punishment or he's off the team. The principle reminded him that players can't be cut from the team except for grades or legal issues. Coach said fine; if he doesn't do the next 3 days of discipline, then he can stay on the team, but he guarantees the kid and parents that he will not see 1 day of playing time. Not this year or his senior year next year. Coach told the parents and the principle that this is varsity sports and he gets final say over who plays. Parents of course tried to argue. The kid finally got the message and said he'd do the discipline. The parents tried to say no, but the kid told his parent to stay out of it. Seemed like the kid developed more respect for the coach than his own parents. He did do the discipline, was back practicing and playing, straightened his act up, and is looking forward to a promising senior year.</p>
<p>Yes, the schools can go too far. Most times however, we as a society, has crippled the school in their effectiveness. Most parents utilize school as a child care service. Yet the complain when the school tries to maintain any type of discipline. The last measure of control a school has anymore is suspension and expulsion. Yes of course they sometimes go too far; like suspending the 8th grader for having a bag a "Skittles" in school. (School policy is to only have healthy foods in the cafeteria and the vending machines). They shouldn't have the right to tell a parent what they will and won't let their kid eat. But at the same time, we can't take away the very last bit of authority they have with the kids. We wouldn't have this problem if many of today's kids were disciplined, polite, and respectful. Many are, but many aren't. And they are that way because they know they can get away with it. Their parents can't physically discipline them. The school can't physically discipline them. There's even limits on how much detention and such they can instill. Oh well.</p>
<p>No I won't. The reason is because I know you will twist this around. We've had this discussion before. Not every form of "PHYSICAL" punishment is abuse. You've already baited the question by saying; </p>
<p>how inflicting physical "punishment/abuse" on children </p>
<p>You've already made up you mind that ANY physical discipline is abuse. I am only responding now to ensure others don't read what you TWISTED and feed on it. There are MANY forms of physical discipline that are NOT ABUSE.</p>
Explain to me again how inflicting physical "punishment/abuse" on children teaches them not to bully.
<p>You obviously have strong views on this issue. Personally, I'm currently taking a class on developmental psychology; their are about 10 clinical and research psychologists involved in teaching the course, and a quick poll of them on the issue of physical punishment revealed at that every one had at least one instance in which they thought physical punishment would be justified and/or more effective than other punishments. Seems to me that if you can't think of any, you're letting your ideology override your critical faculties.</p>
<p>Kids used to beat me up a lot when I was a freshman in high school and I really resented that. I did nothing to bother them so why would they be so mean to me? I believe they should have been expelled because physical abuse has no place in a school environment. Luckily, I am going to a prestigious Ivy League school(Cornell) so I don't have to deal with those kinds of troublemakers anyway. Who's going to be laughing when I'm with a supermodel girlfriend and am the head of Goldman Sachs? It's going to be me and not those bullies.</p>
You obviously have strong views on this issue. Personally, I'm currently taking a class on developmental psychology; their are about 10 clinical and research psychologists involved in teaching the course, and a quick poll of them on the issue of physical punishment revealed at that every one had at least one instance in which they thought physical punishment would be justified and/or more effective than other punishments. Seems to me that if you can't think of any, you're letting your ideology override your critical faculties.*</p>
<p>I used the example of bullying since that was used in the post I was replying to.
I have spanked before- when my kids were preschoolish age, and they ran out into the street, it was partly a swat out of relief and partly to show them that I meant business.
I did the same thing with the dog.</p>
<p>However, I don't think using physical force to punish someone for using physical intimidation or force is appropriate- perhaps you could explain it to me?</p>
<p>I've also not "had this discussion" before, you must be confusing me with someone else.</p>
A private school in my area had a situation where three high school students--two boys and a girl--made a video which consisted of the threesome engaging in behavior that is usually best conducted in private. They then told schoolmates about the film, and showed it. The film was not filmed or shown on campus. The three students were expelled.
<p>I feel that these expulsions were completely unjustified.</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom, certainly no student should be punished for saying "I hate teacher X" in conversation. Nor would I support punishment for a kid who writes "I hate teacher X" on their personal myspace page. The kid may be obnoxious, but he or she does have a right to his or her opinion.</p>
<p>IMHO, a student who <em>forges</em> a myspace page purporting to be that of another real person has gone over the line of free speech into libel/slander land. When that page targets a school official, and includes fictitious statements in which the target, the school principal, says in graphic terms that he likes to have anal sex with specific underage boys in his office--which is what the kid in question did--the student has, IMHO, made it the school's business. The school has a responsibility to maintain a safe learning environment for all of its students. Publishing these libels on a myspace page interferes significantly with the school's ability to do that. If I were the parent of one of the boys, I would indeed file a lawsuit against the kid and/or his parents unless we received an equally public abject apology. I would also agitate to have the perpetrator removed from the school environment for a period of time. The remainder of the school year seems reasonable in this case. It needs to be made very, very clear to the entire student body that what this kid did was unacceptable. His victims should not have to encounter him in school. In the case of the principal, even a whiff of sexual scandal could easily be career-ending. This is not a matter to be taken lightly.</p>
<p>My kids' (private) HS has a clear code of conduct and honor code. All are required to read and sign it at the beginning of the year. It has clear criteria not oly for behavior on and off campus, but if a student knows about an incident that is clearly a violation of the rules and witholds that information, that student can be held equally accountable when the consequences are doled out. Faculty children have been expelled and not let back in. The rules are the rules. We have two choices-- take it or leave it.</p>
1of42 & Christcorp
I didn't say physical punishment = abuse, but physical punishment/abuse, and since you don't apparently operate in a world with grey areas, I will point out that educators are not trained in using physical punishment- and that can be a very emotional area-and from what I have seen it is better for them to stay completely away from inflicting harsh discipline in an attempt to improve behavior.</p>
<p>(I am not talking about coaches requiring an extra lap for coming to practice late- but more of the Stop crying or I will give you something to cry about technique that can be seen in public every day, which makes me fear what we don't see)</p>
<p>I haven't observed parents skilled in using physical punishment for controlling behavior either, but I have seen them use physical punishment as an outlet for anger.</p>
<p>Do you have information that illustrates how countries that have banned physical punishment (including in the home) have a higher crime rate?</p>
<p>Sorry; but I can't buy a single study that narrows down a cause and affect. In other words, I won't buy any study that say crime is down because physical punishment is down. Nor would I buy it if it said it was up when physical punishment is down. I also don't buy crime is up or down because of the reduction or increase of guns. </p>
<p>Our society, and many other country's, are very complex. Crime, violence, respect, etc... are contributed to a combination of many characteristics. From economics to politics. From personal freedoms to social norms. Each country has their own combination. Sometimes one negative, maybe crime, goes up while another negative, maybe unemployment, goes down. There are too many variables. So sorry, I won't get into this stuff about physically punishing a child causes more crimes and violence in society. Sorry, I have seen kids who have been physically punished go both directions of this debate. Just like when people say that states like Vermont and Wyoming who have some of the least strict gun control laws have some of the lowest crime. While that may be true, I doubt that it's totally because of the gun laws. Economics, family values, culture, political involvement, etc... all contribute to these results.</p>
<p>There are no hard truths about physical discipline and punishment and how a child will turn out when they are older. The best there are, are hypotheses and theories. There's nothing concrete. If you think there are, then that's fine. But we can't debate this topic at all then. Not bad, not good. Just a fact. It would be like me trying to tell someone that something is right or wrong because it's in the bible. If they don't believe in the bible, I can't use that as an argument. Same here. You can't use any study that I believe is so narrow as to state a cause and affect at the societal level of a single cause and a single affect. I, and most sociologist/psychologists don't believe this. They understand the complexity in what makes you; who you are. It's not JUST because you were spanked or even BEATEN. It isn't JUST because you grew up poor and your mom worked the streets so you could eat. It's not JUST because you didn't have a father growing up. It's not JUST because of anything.</p>