<p>I can assure you that a lot of Ivy League students are normal. I was always under the impression that the resume-padding CC posters were stressed out top-school hopefuls, not necessarily the type of students you would actually find at elite schools. I attend one of those “lesser” Ivies, and I’ve found that most people aren’t at all obsessed. My friends at other Ivies aren’t either; they’re do what they like, and they have fun. It’s good to take AP courses in subjects you aren’t interested in, not only to broaden your academic horizons but also to challenge yourself to learn something different from what you normally do on your own.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone for their responses. I think my gameplan will be to stick to this “Parent’s Forum” as my main source of info/advice here on CC. It seems that everyone who answered me here was not only helpful, but pretty darn nice as well. I’m not sure if it’s a good thing, but I know that I absolutely LOVE to RESEARCH every major family undertaking - whether that’s a new car, a vacation or a college choice. The ultimate college decisions are totally up to my kids, but I like to know I can give them informed advice if they want it. Thanks again.</p>
<p>Parent99 – My daughter has perfect grades (4.0), takes APs and scores well and has solid SATs (Ivy schools are absolutely reach with her current scores). She wants to pursue a career in pharmacy or medicine or dentistry. </p>
<p>She has mild interest in applying to Columbia because it’s in NYC but beyond that wants to go to a good college for pre-medicine or pre-pharmacy, etc. I’m thankful that she hasn’t picked out one dream school based on prestige. I want her to apply to lots of schools and see what happens. My father was a graduate of 2 Ivy schools (many, many years ago) for his Master’s and his PhD. Both were paid by employers. I’ve told my daughter if she really has a dream school then defer her dream to graduate school when she really has a better idea of what is the best fit for her. </p>
<p>I have confidence that she’ll do well wherever she goes…and am hopeful that we will be able to afford to help pay for her choice. Our current understanding that she applies to wherever she wants but that our promise is to fund her at the rate at one of our in-state public universities. (This is now approximately $22k for room, board and tuition.)</p>
<p>Parent99–No offense taken. My friends enjoy ribbing me about the “Hahhhhvahd” stereotype, so it’s all good. I think as well as CC’s posters being a skewed sample of the ivy-bound or hopeful, a lot of the ivy-obession might be region based. I went to a large public high school, so big that competition between students was almost non-existent, since basically everyone could do their own thing. It’s probably different at private schools/boarding schools/elite publics.</p>
<p>I won’t deny that there are prestige chasers, since they exist basically everywhere, but I was pretty fortunate in that my friends, teachers, and parents were more concerned with the value of education than the value of a brand name.</p>
<p>I kind of worry too about being too “normal” to fit in, but more in the sense of everyone seems to be a genius but me!</p>
<p>“Our current understanding that she applies to wherever she wants but that our promise is to fund her at the rate at one of our in-state public universities. (This is now approximately $22k for room, board and tuition.)”</p>
<p>Since your handle is “AdvicePlease,” I’ll take the liberty of reacting to this. If this understanding is based on your financial situation, then it is quite reasonable, and your daughter may be able to obtain financial aid to pay for a more costly school. If, however, you have the financial ability to pay for a top school, and she has the academic qualifications to go to one, I think it is a mistake to assume that it doesn’t make any difference, especially if she is really interested in medicine.</p>
<p>Hunt – Our current financial situation is stable but we absolutely don’t have enough money saved to send her to school. The only way we will even possibly begin to fund her education will be with loans or taxable withdraws from my retirement savings (…I’ve considered this but I’m hesitant to use up my retirement savings…I will definitely need to take loans to fund wherever she attends.) We won’t qualify for financial aid because we both work full time and make ok salaries…certainly not enough, however, to come up with $50k a year to pay for college though. So…we’re in the situation where I’m sure our EFC will disqualify us for aid but we most certainly don’t have the ability to pay.</p>
<p>Also, we live in PA and we have excellent public universities…there are two types of public schools in PA – we have the State affiliated schools – such as West Chester, Bloomsberg, etc… they used to be called the “teachers” schools. These are good schools but not especially academically competitive. Then we have 3 large public universities that are public but are independently run…Penn State, University of Pittsburgh, and Temple. All three have medical schools and Pitt and Temple also have pharmacy schools. All have Honors programs that are very competitive and she will apply to the Honors programs. </p>
<p>I think my daughter will get accepted at many good private schools…but Ivies would definitely be a reach because while she has good base SAT scores they are no measure perfect. She also has good SAT subject tests and has successfully complete 4 AP tests with good scores. </p>
<p>I do appreciate your advice (as my name says I am definitely looking for it!). We’ll see how the acceptances play out. At this point she knows she absolutely wants a career in a medicine related science field – pharmacy, doctor, research scientist but doesn’t have her heart on a specific school. I know to “never say never” and we’ll have to look at everything. </p>
<p>My older daughter is at a public university and has had many opportunities – research and a good paying internship… I won’t rule anything out and do appreciate your advice!!</p>
<p>After years of reading this board, I see something of a disconnect between the kids who are Ivy-obsessed and those who actually wind up at Ivy schools. Certainly there are some kids who try to cut themselves to fit what they think the Ivy mold is and choose their ECs and curriculum to look good on college apps. Yet it seems to me that the kids at Ivies are generally those kids who truly fit best there - the math prodigies, musical geniuses with perfect SATs, kids on fire to do original medical research - you know, the fabled “walk on water” kids. And yes, I know that such kids also wind up at the many, many other fine universities and LACs in this country.</p>
<p>To answer the OP’s question - I never would have discouraged my kids from applying to Ivies because I thought that Ivy-obsessed kids would be over-represented on campus. Not everyone at an Ivy is there because they had an “Ivy or bust” mentality. I did ask my two oldest ds (one of who was accepted at Cornell, the only Ivy any of my kids ever applied to) if they thought they’d be happy at schools where pretty much everyone has that ultra-special (walk on water, if you will) quality. Neither of them thought that would be a big issue to cope with - but neither of them felt those particular eight schools were the best fits for them, either.</p>
<p>After reading CC for a couple of years, I’ve learned to breathe deeply when I look at the “stats” that people post in their quest to seek whether they’ll be accepted to an elite U. My oldest son was accepted a year ago to a wonderful school, and he had great credentials, BUT when I look at his college’s message boards, I wonder how the heck he ever got in there with his “weaker” stats. He’s been on the Dean’s list both semesters…</p>
<p>With S2, quite surprisingly, there is an Ivy on his list, because it seems like a perfect fit for his academic pursuit. It will be a big reach for him to get accepted (no “perfection” in scores, grades or disease-curing research). We are completely confident, though, that if he were accepted, he would fit in, succeed, and be a great contributor to that school’s community. I’m extremely comforted --and was when we visited–that there are nice, regular kids there.</p>
<p>The key fact to remember is that an awful lot of those posting on the student CC forums do not get admitted to the very Ivies they’re obsessed about. Some do get admitted. (They come back later to post on the Results threads.) But what I tend to find is that the quieter posters, and many even self-deprecating, modest posters are the ones who get admitted. A few, also, of the over-the-top ones – in terms of apparent ego – also have reported positive admissions results to Ivies. However, when comparing the tone & content of the latter’s pre-admission posts with post-admission posts, the genuine personalities emerge. For the most part, that translates to having a normal, non-inflated ego in ‘real life.’ After several years on CC reading the student forums (and occasionally posting in them 
), a lot of what you see is cyber-ego-battles, for want of a more apt phrase. A lot of posing & strutting for ego points, with the more mature (& balanced!) voices among them standing out as exceptions.</p>
<p>I also think that a lot of the “Ivy-obsessed” kids are a lot more normal than they may seem through the lens of postings here.</p>
<p><<here’s what=“” makes=“” me=“” crazy.=“” i=“” can’t=“” help=“” but=“” wonder=“” if=“” a=“” student=“” like=“” this=“” really=“” wants=“” to=“” spend=“” the=“” next=“” 4=“” years=“” with=“” so=“” many=“” other=“” students=“” who=“” seem=“” almost=“” obsessed=“” getting=“” into=“” these=“” schools.=“” mean=“” they=“” have=“” spent=“” their=“” entire=“” hs=“” career=“” “building=”" resume.“=”" crazy=“” lists=“” of=“” ec’s.=“” 10-12=“” ap=“” classes.=“” awards=“” galore.=“” and=“” then=“” worst=“” part=“” -=“” same=“” kids=“” look=“” down=“” on=“” someone=“” my=“” child=“” has=“” been=“” more=“” focused=“” being=“” normal=“” high=“” school=“” student.=“” obviously=“” very=“” bright.=“” works=“” hard.=“” does=“” well.=“” puts=“” lots=“” time=“” chosen=“” sport.=“” doesn’t=“” see=“” logic=“” taking=“” every=“” course=“” offered=“” because=“” it=“” make=“” sense.=“” one=“” major=“” in=“” history,=“” for=“” example,=“” why=“” world=“” would=“” you=“” take=“” chemistry=“” hs?=“” looks=“” good=“” colleges=“” want=“” it?=“” that’s=“” not=“” way=“” we=“” think.=“”>></here’s></p>
<p>That’s not the way we think, either. We think that one should pursue intellectual, artistic, athletic–whatever–passions for their own sake.</p>
<p>My S took AP Chem, AP Bio, AP Physics, and AP Calculus. He has no intention–at this point–of majoring in a science/math/engineering subject.
He took those courses, and various other APs, because he has very broad intellectual interests. And he prefers to be in classes that move faster and where the other students are motivated and act like it. </p>
<p>My S also studied two languages through the AP level in HS, and chose to take an independent study in AP lit in one of them. Again, he has no intention of majoring in either of these languages. In fact, although he has at least a triple exemption from the language requirement, he plans to start a third language as a freshman next year. He likes languages.</p>
<p>He also chose to study philosophy at three CTY summer sessions. Perhaps your son would regard that as something that a person would only do if they were trying to build a resume. Wrong.</p>
<p>He also was a 3-season athlete. Why? Because he enjoyed it. He was never going to be a recruited athlete, or even a high school star. He also played an instrument and continues to pursue itseriously, more seriously now than when it would have done him more good on his resume, actually. Why? Because he has discovered a passion for it. He’s never going to be a professional. But he’ll hve music in his life.</p>
<p>And he never took an SAT prep class, and did almost no prep on his own. (Not that I endorse the latter, but that was his choice. He does NOTHING that he doesn’t CHOOSE to do, even when mom thinks he should. ) He was certainly not obsessed with getting into an Ivy, although he did get into one. (And didn’t get into others.)</p>
<p>Maybe you and yours simply do not understand the motivation of someone who has a strong intellectual bent. Maybe your S doesn’t belong at a school where people share that characteristic. (Just as some kids would feel out of place at a school that was very arts-oriented, or at a school that was science-oriented, or whatever.) But don’t worry about it: there are plenty of schools out there and many of them will be a fit for him. In the meantime, I would avoid making too many assumptions about others because they don’t share your interests. As a friend of mine is wont to say, it is a bad idea to compare your insides to someone else’s outsides.</p>
<p>We have a daughter at CCC - I deliberately guided her away from 4 year colleges of all types - public, private, ivies. I knew the right match for her was a community college because her personality would not have thrived in an uber-competitive environment. She had strong SATs and an okay GPA - she was not very excited about high school. It wasn’t as if she was going to get into an ivy (not impossible) - but she could have gotten into many different selective schools.</p>
<p>Our son wants to go to an ivy or almost-ivy. Intellectually, it is a good match. Personality wise, he likes competition. But I’m hesitant. I honestly think it could swing either way in terms of how he’d fit in… I’m 60/40 against the idea and continue to encourage him to apply to a wider range of schools. I do not think CCC is the right first step for him, I think one of the big UCs would be about right.</p>
<p>So, in answer to your question - I agree that ivies actually have a downside. I also think that many of the private schools (non-ivies) give just as strong as an education AND many of the perks of ivies. I also think good state flagship schools give strong educations and build character because they lack the perks of ivies and private schools. One has to go out and “make” opportunities happen when not at an ivy/private. </p>
<p>I think ivies are a unique educational experience, the ivies (and highly selective privates) know this and enjoy hand-crafting their incoming freshmen classes. Many of these ivies/privates could easily expand their programs to reach a wider audience, but they enjoy concentrating their vast resources on a tiny group of select students vs. spreading the opportunities around more. Inherently elitist - and I think there is a problem at the root of that idea. Most the privates are like high end country clubs these days. Do these ivies really figure out hte best place to spend those dollars when <em>education</em> is the goal? Or do they spend an incredible amount of money maintaining the posh 4year resort experience for their pampered chosen? Does a brand new 100 million dollar facility/library, for example, really produce 100 million dollars worth of educated students? Or does it just add to the elite structure and experience of these schools? (I’m not saying that some facilities don’t need to be updated - but I question a lot of the new buildings on many campuses and how much it is about prestige and comfort vs. nuts and bolts best bang for the buck in terms of educating many students).</p>
<p>Annika</p>
<p>I kind of see OP’s point. It is important to have normal high-school experience. I think the core of the problem is people (parents, students) become overly obsessed with getting into Ivy’s and that is not healthy. There is nothing wrong with aiming high and achieving much as you can. But there is also the attitude that you play with cards that’s dealt to you and be happy with your school choices and make the best you can. I can tell you there are more famous people who are non ivy-league grads than there are ivy grads. The sooner kids learn this life lesson the happier and the more they can accomplish in their lives.</p>
<p>Annika, its nice to see you take time off your tournament and help us out at CC :).</p>
<p>Consolation - I think the tone of your post is a little harsh and scolding. I really wasn’t meaning to offend anyone. It sounds like you took it a little too personally! </p>
<p>However anyone wants to spend their HS career is fine with me (and with my child - he could care less what anyone else does or thinks). More power to you and your kids and good luck with however they spend their time and efforts. I was just expressing a concern that I had. I think you’re making some pretty bit assumptions about me (and my kid) from one little post that you read. I kind of feel like all of the other responses addressed my question and provided logical, helpful information.</p>
<p>I can’t help but feel that my post just ticked you off and you felt the need to give me a piece of your mind. Not sure why it hit you that way, but sorry if I offended you.</p>
<p>Well, I think that assuming that kids only take APs in subjects that they don’t plan to major in just to look good on a resume is in fact pretty damned insulting. (Although certainly there are kids who do that. But i don’t exactly understand why choosing to push oneself on the athletic field is “normal” and choosing to push oneself to achieve an academic goal is suspect.) Moreover, to me it seems to display a complete lack of understanding of the intellectually-oriented individual. That doesn’t make you a bad person. It just makes you someone who doesn’t understand a certain type of kid very well. </p>
<p>I’m sure you would be irritated if people assumed that your S pursues whatever his interests are solely in hopes of appealing to some coach or admissions committee. (Certainly, the parents of recruited athletes have made their irritation at the assumption that their kids were admitted with lower stats known around here!) Moreover, I would bet that you would conclude–and probably rightly–that the person probably had little idea of what motivates a dedicated athlete.</p>
<p>Again, there are several different things here:
(1) wannabe Ivy-leaguers
(2) wannabe Ivy-leaguers who post on CC (different universe)
(3) accepted Ivy-leaguers
(4) accepted Ivy-leaguers who post on CC (still different universe)
(5) enrolled Ivy-leaguers
(6) enrolled Ivy-leaguers who post on CC (still different univere)</p>
<p>It seems that the OP is drawing her data from universe #2, not from universe #5 or even #6. There is a chasm of difference there.</p>
<p>OTOH, debating self (LOL), I will say that any college-bound family needs to sit down & have a conversation with their student as to the priorities sought in a college experience. That is not only helpful to answering the OP’s own question, not only helpful for drawing inclusive & excluding lists (& spending valuable time/$ making visits, if planned), but most especially for the selected college apps themselves. If you’re not clear on what you want at this particular college, not clear on what the college features & offers, chances of admission, regardless of stats, are poor. If you succeed, independently of that, with an athletic recruitment, it is obviously still important ahead of time to ascertain whether the student is likely to find that environment socially enriching or not; not all the time will be spent on the field & locker room.</p>
<p>If the “culture” of any particular campus is important to the student (it is to most, but not all), then first determine what that culture is, based on information beyond impressions derived from cc postings. There’s no question that there’s some amount of ‘elitism,’ for example at most highly selective, very popular colleges/U’s. However, that is different from the competitiveness angle mentioned by the OP. Competition in high school (who’s taking AP’s, how many, and why, etc.) will not necessarily translate equally to college. First of all, the population will be different, & will include non-rabidly-competitive types as well. Secondly, if some of the students posting on cc assume that their success in acing their work in h.s., as well as their high school rank, will carry them effortlessly through their college years with the same status, they’re in for a big surprise. Thirdly, some college programs, & schools within that college or U., are overtly competitive, some are not. Some pre-med programs are. Some engineering programs are. Some bio programs, etc. And may I add this is also true of particular programs in certain PUBLICS, as well. Certain programs in certain publics are insanely competitive & not for the faint of heart. And there are professional schools which provide completely different levels & varieties of competition.</p>
<p>In both public & private elites (Ivies, high-profile research U’s & highly regarded LAC’s), you will find students who were & are driven by a thirst for knowledge & excellence, others driven by a thirst for status. As of yet, I don’t know of any college that claims & can verify that all or even most of its student body arrived there from entirely pure motives. However, I’m sure that many monasteries can credibly claim the same.</p>
<p>Footnote:
In my own state, the high school students who structure their entire h.s. career around assumed outcomes, tend to be the ones who, despite also applying to Ivies, end up with U.C. acceptances & enrollments, & Ivy rejections or waitlists. That is because most public U’s are heavily numbers-driven, looking less at reasons for class selection than “the bottom line.” If you’re eligible, you’re eligible. As long as your essay isn’t horrible, you will be accepted to at least one U.C., often several, and sometimes all if your combined stats (eligibility index) are high enough, as well as add’l e.c. involvement/level of involvement.</p>
<p>The Ivies are different. They are not going to look necessarily ultimately at “the bottom line,” stat-wise. They will do so initially, but they will look at many other indications of sincerity of academic purpose, college app purpose, academic maturity indications, etc. They will look at the student who pursues an unusual, even unique path. (Sometimes called the ‘angular’ student.) They will look at the student who has foregone some AP’s to take extra drama, music, or special seminar-type classes. They will look at indications of motivation & intellect beyond the AP label. Above all, they will look at & for consistency. Sacrificing achievement in your areas of interest will not necessarily be rewarded by admission to a <em>private</em> elite.</p>
<p>The real question is where does your child feel comfortable going? S/he should visit Ivies, and a lot of other schools, to decide what atmosphere works best for him/her.</p>
<p>My daughter is at an Ivy, and was a little concerned about what types she might meet there. She attended a rural HS where few people apply to selective schools. She made lots of friends in college with kids who seem perfectly normal. Very smart, but not obsessed.</p>