Discourage Ivies?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’ve been lurking for a few weeks, and I guess I just can’t control myself any longer. First, I have to say, that after reading many, many, many posts on this forum, I do realize that my personal feelings are probably NOT similar to that of the majority of the parents (or the students.) I think that’s what might be concerning me. Is this forum really indicative of the type of students who attend the Ivy League schools? At any rate, I think (hope?) that there might be some people out there who think the way I do.</p>

<p>Does anyone feel as thought they should discourage their child regarding Ivy League schools because their kid might be just a bit to “normal” to fit in? I really don’t mean to sound offensive in my use of the word “normal”, but it’s really the best word I can come up with when comparing my child with the majority of the posters who are either hoping to gain admission to an Ivy League school or have already been admitted - this goes for the students and their parents.</p>

<p>Here’s what I mean:</p>

<p>My child would probably have to consider the Ivies a “reach.” The GPA is great (4.0 unweighted, close to 5.0 weighted) just about all Honors. SAT’s on the lower bands of acceptance, ACT closer to the middle. There is a hook - the possibility of sports recruitment. The Ivies were never really on the radar, but they’ve been strongly recommended at this point. After visiting many of them, it’s hard not to be caught-up in it. They have so many wonderful things to offer.</p>

<p>Here’s what makes me crazy. I can’t help but wonder if a student like this really wants to spend the next 4 years with so many other students who seem almost obsessed with getting into these schools. I mean they seem to have spent their entire HS career “building their resume.” Crazy lists of EC’s. 10-12 AP classes. Awards galore. And then the worst part - these same kids seem to look down on someone like my child who has really been more focused on being a normal high school student. Obviously very bright. Works hard. Does very well. Puts lots and lots of time into the chosen sport. Doesn’t see the logic of taking every AP course offered because it doesn’t seem to make sense. If one wants to major in History, for example, why in the world would you take AP Chemistry in HS? Because it looks good and colleges want to see it? That’s not the way we think. As far as EC’s, the sport at this level of competition is VERY time consuming. Which is fine - it’s a passion. It however, doesn’t leave time for many other EC’s. Basically, it’s the sport and a couple of “Honor Society” type organizations. As far as tutors and standardized test prep - we don’t go there. The kid is smart enough to carry a full honors course load - why would we pay money for any type of tutor? So that he/she can appear smarter than he/she actually is? My child likes to point out that the entire standardized testing system really helps the wealthy in this aspect. We, I guess you could say, are upper-middle class. We live in an area where EVERYONE does the tutor/prep route - the strong students more so than the weaker ones!</p>

<p>I can see that this is just turning into a rant. The bottom line is this: Are there any other parents out there who feel the way I do? Maybe my child just won’t “fit in” at an Ivy - even thought I am absolutely positive the “brains” and the work ethic are there for success at any Ivy?</p>

<p>Again, please don’t think I’m trying to “dis” other posters on this forum. More power to them. Sometimes the “superior attitude” does get to me though. So please, any others out there like me, or am I just flat-out crazy?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>A thousand years ago, when I had the chance to attend Radcliffe (now Harvard), I actually had the exact same worry. Not based on seeing posters on cc, lol, and not worrying re the obsession of Ivy-bound students. But somehow feeling that a “regular” person like myself might not fit in.</p>

<p>I overnighted there and felt quite a bit different, but in the end decided to attend Wellesley.</p>

<p>My H attended Harvard. He is a regular guy. The kids from my area’s public HS who have gone there, or Princeton or Yale, are “regular” too. Albeit very accomplished. But not obsessed.</p>

<p>Even more important than the points I would make above is this one: The HUGE majority of those obsessing here on cc are NOT getting into those Ivies. They do NOT represent what the student body will be like. I would be very comfortable in speculating that even the very most accomplished students walking around Harvard Yard (or any other Ivy quad), whose resumes might knock your socks off, are NOT wearing those resumes on their sleeves, are not supercilious in any way. And that you would not be able to identify them based on casual conversation, classroom interaction or dorm interaction. They do not carry a superior attitude.</p>

<p>Bottom Line: I would not discourage my kid from applying. I would most assuredly want my kid to keep Ivy admission in perspective, as just one of many possible fabulous outcomes. I would want my kid to feel just as excited about admission to other schools which fit him. Which I’m sure you will, based on the perspective you have shown here.</p>

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<p>OP,</p>

<p>Eerily, you could have been describing my child, my reaction to CC and our academic philosophy as parents. Ivies were not really on the radar screen until we realized at the end of D’s Junior year that she had the credentials, and this was without intentionally trying to qualify for Ivy admission. She has now just completed her freshman year at an Ivy, where she met many students just like her. She loves it there, and feels like she fits right in. So no, I wouldn’t discourage Ivies for your child.</p>

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<p>The kids who post here on CC are by definition more obsessed than those who don’t. My kid applied to Harvard, but he never once posted on CC - well a couple of times I asked him to give some computer advise on my screenname, but that’s it! He’s very much a follow your own drummer kid - he never had his eyes on what colleges want. He got good grades, scored well, had exactly two school based ECs (neither of which were particularly time consuming) and spent the rest of his free time (and there was lots of it) reading sci-fi and messing around on computers (sometimes for pay more often not). Harvard accepts plenty of kids who are not Ivy obsessed, though I’m sure you will also find a substantial portion who are like the ones who post on CC. All I can recommend is to do some visits including some overnights and see for yourself.</p>

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<p>Way to generalize about Ivy students :/</p>

<p>FWIW, I know lots of people headed to Ivies with no test prep, obsessive ECs, or 2400 scores, myself included. We all led relatively happy, fulfilling high school lives, which weren’t dominated by the thought of getting into college. </p>

<p>CC has rabid posters for every school–check out the forums for Duke, if you want an example. If you discount schools because of their representation on CC you’’ end up throwing away probably half of the USNWR schools.</p>

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<p>Thanks - I appreciate your point-of-view and what you say makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question.</p>

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<p>I understand your point. And I can somewhat agree with you. The kids who got into the Ivy+ schools are our HS really played the game. For ex, our state has a Fine Arts requirement - so the kids would take AP Art History to meet the requirment, and get an AP - abosultely no interest in Art, or Art History at all. Some kids took the SAT II subject tests multiple times - with individual tutoring in between. Or they would pre-take Bio privately over the summer - then take it again at HS to ensure an A+.</p>

<p>However, on the other hand, there are a lot of kids who got top acceptance who were following their passions. There are many kdsi for whom the Honors courses don’t offer enough of a challenge - they take the AP because they want to. Our HS offer 20+ AP courses, so it is not so hard to find some really interesting ones. </p>

<p>The hard question is - is it resume building, or an active interest that guides a student ? Are they self-motivated or chasing an admission ? There is no easy way to answer the question, and you can’t make any assumptions about the other students. And even if they are chasing an admission - is that so wrong ? They’re setting a goal and achieving it - to a certain extent, that is what life is about. You may not agree with their goal, but that is another post.</p>

<p>Good luck with the whole admissions process !!</p>

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<p>Thirdfloor - I didn’t mean to offend anyone by generalizing about all Ivy students. I was, however, generalizing about the posters on CC, and just wondering if people thought they were a good representation of students at the Ivies. You do have to admit that there aren’t that many posts from the students that you describe (like yourself), and many, many more from the “rapid posters” to which you refer…</p>

<p>Sorry if my post was offensive - I was trying really hard NOT to sound that way.</p>

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<p>I am sure some do for this very reason, and others take APs in fields they have no intention of majoring in because regular courses are not sufficiently challenging.
When my S was in high school, the principal implemented a disastrous experiment that eliminated all Honors classes. What was left was regular CP classes and APs. Students who would have happily taken Honors classes had to take APs if they did not want to take CP classes with students whose reading level was about 6th grade. As for S, he took APs in subjects he did not want to pursue in college because he did not like being bored.</p>

<p>The Harvard Dean of Admissions once said there were about 300 academic superstars in a cohort of 2000 admitted students every year. The other 1700 must count as “regular” “normal” students. I would not discourage a strong student from applying to Ivies, but also remind that strong students with the exact same profile can be found at top LACs and other universities.</p>

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<p>I don’t blame you for your reservations. But the reason you see so many obsessive Ivy-Chasers on CC is because these kids are so concerned with the schools that they need validation of their eligibility every day. Many of them have decided that they’re already going to an Ivy: whichever one accepts them (and don’t try to tell them that they might not get accepted to one). </p>

<p>But there are many Ivy League kids who are not this way. Many of my high school classmates who went to Ivy League schools had normal social lives, an average amount of (but good) extracurriculars, and did NOT obsess over the schools. Some were like the CCers. But enough were like your son that I think he could find friends and be happy even at schools like Harvard and Yale.</p>

<p>However, keep your son’s attitude in mind during the college search. Why take AP Chemistry to impress if there’s no interest in it? Why go to an Ivy League school if he likes somewhere else better? The best way to make sure your son is happy at his college is to let him choose without bias. If you start considering the Ivy Leagues as the only options, then you’ll start to notice a similarity between your son and CCers.</p>

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<p>Taking APs brought S into group of peers who let the teachers teach. In regular classes at our HS, kids walk around and disrupt the lesson. I’ve known retired teachers who volunteered, and all left after one year, dismayed by the rude behavior exhibited in classes.</p>

<p>S had 4 or 5 college classes each semester in junior year, and that was it for him. He did not want to stay for a senior year of HS.</p>

<p>It wasn’t Ivy’s that interested S, but tech schools. Similarly, his friends focused on a service academy, a strong music program, and a top business program. The latter happened to be within an Ivy, but there was no sense of “Ivy fever”.</p>

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<p>Don’t 4 or 5 classes/semester usually make you a full-time student? I thought there were restrictions on what you could take at colleges without being accepted into the regular programs.</p>

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<p>My son took APUSH not because he has any interest in history but because that was still the appropriate level course for him. That’s what all the top kids take. And besides, having done well on the AP he placed out of half of his college’s history requirement. What’s not to like about that? (From his point of view.) I don’t think it’s so terrible for kids to take AP Art History to fulfill an art requirement, if you check out another thread here, many adults say that art history is the one course they took outside their major that they most enjoyed.</p>

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<p>Your son’s an athlete. He understands the concept of being goal-oriented. If he really wants to improve his playing, he practices, works out, maybe goes to clinics and summer programs to get better. Academics are like that for lots of people, and it’s not obnoxious for them to take courses that improve their abilities, broaden their appeal, etc. Many of those same supposedly “obsessed” students are actually pretty normal most of the time.</p>

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Sometimes because one realizes that one’s interests and majors may (and probably will) change in college. (Please note that my humanities D did not take AP chem but only honors.) In fact, d’s Chem teacher said that she hated science in chemistry, took Intro in college with a fantastic teacher who turned her on both to teaching and to chemistry.</p>

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<p>My daughter just graduated, and this describes her and a large majority of the kids she knew at Harvard as well.</p>

<p>She did take APs in high school. I think the final total turned out to be nine. But it was not out of some drive and desire to get into an Ivy. In fact she says it never even occurred to her to apply to Harvard until mid-way through her Jr. year when we got the SAT scores back, and I pointed out to her that she would be a viable candidate for H if she chose to apply. Prior to that she was already into the AP courses, but the Ivy league was nowhere on her radar.</p>

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<p>OP-
My son sounds like yours, and based on these boards I had not really thought about applying to Ivy league schools.</p>

<p>Maybe I’ve been wrong.</p>

<p>his stats: 1470/2130 SAT. Lots of AP’s (because of the magnet he attends.) About a 3.6 unweighted GPA, 4.4 ish weighted (depending on who is doing the weighting)
4 years of a sport, but not a star.
Various EC’s but not the president, etc.</p>

<p>RNK (really nice kid) a little flaky. :-)</p>

<p>Who knows - maybe we’ll take a flyer at Princeton.</p>

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<p>I do think you get a skewed idea of what kids are like at an Ivy League school when you read some of the posts on CC. </p>

<p>Daughter was one of many kids who didn’t even think about such a school until she started receiving materials after PSAT. H and I thought she might have a shot, but we never said anything to her until those scores came in. To her someone going to Harvard was like someone going to the Olympics, cool, but utterly untouchable. </p>

<p>Long story short, she’s at Yale and happier than she has ever been in her life.</p>

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<p>I never thought of CC as a place “for people intent of attending Ivys” but rather a forum for parents and prospective students to get information.</p>

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<p>NewHope33, it all depends on which discussion forums you are in. Here on the Parents forum, there’s all types. But check out the Ivy forums at your peril. I do remember one post in the parent section from a parent who was disappointed that his oldest child only got into a “lesser Ivy” and was wondering what to do to ensure his younger child would do better. The parent was disappointed that his daughter had to “settle” for Cornell!!!</p>

<p>OP, in general CC does not represent the “average” high school kid or even the average kid heading to college. CC says it is for “Elite College Admissions.” That said, I’m sure there are plenty of “normal” kids at Ivies. I really think some of these obsessed Ivy wannabes on CC get turned down precisely because the colleges can see thru it, and see that they’re all about resume-building instead of following a passion. Many of them don’t even know why they want to go to Harvard except that it’s the “best.” I’ve seen students on these forums who want to go to Harvard to study something the school doesn’t even offer! So I think the kids that DO end up at HYP are probably kids who truly have a passion and follow it, and admissions can see that - and they’re probably more “normal.”</p>

<p>Let your son apply to Ivies, but also look at plenty of other schools. When he goes to visit, and especially if he goes back for an “accepted student” day, he’ll be able to tell if the kids at that school are “normal” or not.</p>