But these schools aren’t about “fairness” at all. They want to shape their classes in a way that meets their institutional needs - and what those needs are changes from year to year. Because they have such an overabundance of excellent applicants, elite schools can operate this way. Any unhooked student needs to understand that unless they have some incredible EC or academic achievement (i.e. olympiad medalist) their chances are not very good at T20 schools (especially HYPSM).
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The Ivys don’t serve a “meaningful percentage” of the US population, and yet they have outsize influence on law, politics, finance and so much else. Nobody questions their right to exist because they don’t have “enough” students.
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There are many colleges in the US that are relatively transparent in terms of admissions, namely most public undergrad programs. Again, you are basically asking for ALL US colleges to conform their admissions policies to your preferences, versus just some, and that is not a realistic ask in a system as loosely-regulated and differentiated as ours.
Correct, but again we have a system much like that in the US too, the public system. It just operates in parallel to a system which is not like that, the private system.
So what really distinguishes the US from these other countries then is not the existence of such a public system, it is the existence of this additional private system TOO, which really has no close analog anywhere else in the world.
Not at the early childhood through secondary levels, but I disagree at the bachelors and graduate levels. Even if you completely ignore the private system, our public system still has many, many excellent institutions.
However, where I agree there is a parallel to our healthcare system is in terms of practical access. Not every qualified person in every location in every state has a convenient commuter college or affordable residential college. Some states are in fact much closer than others to such a standard. So where your family lives can play a significant role in your practical options if you are not a higher income family and you are not one of the lucky few who qualifies for merit or can get get admitted to a true full-need college.
So I would agree that is a real issue with our system. For many our public system works very well, but there are some gaps where it does not.
That is not the point I would make. The point I would make is a system like that would depend on national standards for secondary school curricula and assessment that the United States has historically rejected, insisting instead on local control of education.
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That’s a misconception. Not all public schools operate this way. In fact, the leading flagships that are popular across the nation also practice holistic admissions, class shaping, etc. No different than selective private schools. OTOH there are non-selective private schools that admit most everyone.
So the difference is not public vs private - it’s selectivity, which results from reputation and desirability.
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Those extremely wealthy private institutions don’t need to justify their existence to, say, Congress, because they are not asking the federal government to capitalize them and pay for most of their operating costs.
Most of the funding for such private colleges comes from a combination of private donations, either to the endowment or for current use, and net tuition. Some also comes from fees for various services, including research grants. And some of those grants are federal, but that is a quid pro quo arrangement for conducting certain research, not a simple gift to fund general operations. Federal subsidization of loans also plays a small part, but in the end the net federal contribution to the non-research operations of these colleges is pretty small percentage-wise.
Your proposal would require Congress to lay out many billions in capital and then ongoing operating funds, since presumably it would have no such private donors and you want the net tuition to be very low. If only a small number of people then benefited, members of Congress would rightly ask if that was enough benefit to justify the costs.
So to have any hope of getting such a program off the ground, you would need it to be sufficiently beneficial to enough kids from enough states (Senate) and enough districts (House) to get the votes you needed. And that necessarily implies a very large-scale system.
Again, the only reason the service academies can exist at a much smaller scale is because national defense is seen as a common interest, and people who go into the military are seen as providing a highly valued public service. Absent something like that, finding many billions for a national university that graduated like 2000 kids a year who wanted to compete with Ivy kids for lucrative jobs in law and finance is going to be a tough sell to Congress.
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So the same is true of, say, Oxbridge, where the final cut is made based on tutor interviews.
But sure, a few US publics are less predictable in admissions than others, particularly for OOS applicants, but it is really just a small percentage. Indeed, the “flagships” in our state (PA, so I am talking about Penn State and Pitt) are very popular “Likely” applications in our feederish HS because almost everyone who meets certain numerical requirements will get admitted.
I realize Penn State and Pitt are not probably the “leading” flagships “that are popular across the nation” you had in mind, but schools like that are very much just a tiny fraction of the overall US public higher education system. The vast bulk of our public system is not even as “national” as Penn State and Pitt, let alone the schools I assume you were referencing.
I think this gets complicated. Pitt apparently has an overall admit rate under 50% these days, but it is still considered a relatively predictable admit in my circles–at least for in-state students. Part of what is driving down its overall acceptance rate is it is getting more and more OOS applications, and it can be choosier among those. And there are some rumblings about possibly ending its state relationship, but we shall see.
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I’m not sure it does. There are many public schools that practice holistic admissions - not all are auto-admit or will admit based purely on stats (even for in-state). Like any other schools, they will be safeties for some, likelies for others and reaches for a few. The ratios will vary of course, but that does not change the fact that they practice holistic admissions and sometimes kids with lower stats get in over kids with higher stats.
On the other hand, I assure you that there are non-selective private schools that will admit anyone that meets their academic threshold. Many have acceptance rates north of 80 or even 90% because they need to fill seats.
So it’s not a public vs private issue.
Schools going under are mostly small privates (although some for-profit schools with large enrollment distributed across many small campuses have also gone under).
For a country with a population as large as that of the US, where about 3.6 million students graduate from high school every year, a rack-and-stack national university accessible to a reasonable percentage of them (say top 5%) would have to be quite large. Top 5% (however determined) would be 180,000 per year. Even if only a quarter of those eventually matriculate, that would mean a frosh class of 45,000. If we assume only minimal drop out and minimal semesters beyond 8, then undergraduate enrollment would be 180,000. No single campus that big has existed in the US.
Of course, it could be smaller if it admitted only a smaller top percentage, like top 1%, 0.5%, or 0.1% (the latter may be able to fit in a campus left by a defunct small private college). But as the percentage gets smaller, the ceiling problem gets bigger, which would require some academic measures that can distinguish applicants at that level better than HS GPA and SAT/ACT. Other large countries that do rack and stack university admissions have standardized tests that include far more difficult material than the SAT/ACT.
The model you mention does exist in some states, including in their flagship-level universities (e.g. those in Arizona, Mississippi, Nevada, New Mexico, South Dakota, and Wyoming). But there, the universities are large enough relative to the size and academic competitiveness of the state population that they are not overflowing with applicants whose academic credentials are at or close to the ceilings. There is also Texas with pure rank based admission for much of the universities’ frosh classes, but that has its own issues (including creating incentive for cutthroat competition in high schools).
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I imagine such a school would start small and grow slowly. Without Big Sports, it would be a “fit school,” which I doubt would be widely popular, especially at first. But yes, eventually there might need to be either a new test, or a lottery among those who meet a pre-existing bar. If there is a test, it should vary year-to-year to cut down on any advantage of expensive test prep.
So my daughters first two years were at Illinois Wesleyan. When we went on the school tour my daughter asked about “diversity” on campus. She was talking about racial diversity since when walking around we didn’t see much. The really nice student tour guide said “we have both Catholic and Protestants” on campus. We almost lost it 
. Then she said no racial diversity and he said he had lunch with someone from “China” yesterday. Afterwards he came up to us and told us he is from a really small very white town and really didn’t encounter people looking different from him till he was in college.
Then she transferred to Beloit college where she didn’t need to ask the question. The eye test was all she needed and had a wonderful last two years.
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Even less diverse colleges may be more diverse than the high schools or neighborhoods that many of the students grew up in.
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Absolutely! He took it in stride… Nice kid but that always stood out to me.
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Hey @Knowsstuff, I’m just trying to understand this. Did your daughter have a wonderful last two years because there were a higher percentage of people that didn’t look like her? If that’s the case, why?
I took a quick look at Beloit. There are roughly 1,000 students enrolled and the non-white population seems to be in the mid-thirty percent range(let’s call it 350 students). My son’s school has about 22,000 students with a non-white population around 25%(5,500 students). My son likely sees more POC per day than your daughter did per month.
The international population percentage at Beloit is much higher at 14%(140 students) vs. a measly 1%(220 students) at my son’s school, but he has 9 international students on his team that he spends almost every day of the year with, but that’s pure luck, and completely non-representative of the typical students experience.
If a student prioritizes diversity, but they don’t end up with diverse classes, is that a problem? Students don’t get to pick their classmates. If a student has different races and cultures represented in their classes, but those people would rather self sort into their own cultural or racial groups, does the student seeking diversity feel like they’re not getting what they hoped for?
Did your daughter seek out diverse clubs specifically for the diversity? As mentioned, my son’s team has POC and internationals from South America and several European countries, but again, that’s by luck. My older son at the same school was(and still is) heavily involved with the volunteer rescue squad. There were not many POC on the squad. In fact, in their squad graduation picture there were 35 students and only one was a POC. That said, there were only 9 males in that photo as well. Again, this was all by chance, and diversity was never a consideration when he joined.
Perhaps we never worried about diversity because our boys attended very diverse public schools from K-12. That diversity was racial, cultural and economic. The public university they both attend/attended is far wealthier, and whiter than their high school. I will say, leaving the northeast for college in the south was a bit of a change, but a welcome one. I think students might benefit more from changing geography, rather than hunting for diversity.
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So both my kids went to very diverse high schools. My sons school (#1 in state at the time) was about 25%white.
Beloit was just a better school for her on many levels. Basically kids that wanted to learn and professors that cared about teaching.
The diversity is always a plus for both. She has done activities that would be seen as diverse since they were activities she wanted to be part of if that makes sense. You know the percentages better then I do now. Lol but my point was it was just very obvious the differences in the students attending. That was a plus for her /us. It’s funny you mentioned internationals since she had a lot of international friends. Remember the school is pretty small like 1300 students.
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To add to this my daughter was at IWU over 10 years ago. There was some Muslim attacks on young women in their home country’s. My daughter had Muslim friend’s. She went to some meetings they had and participated in a march they had on campus but not what your seeing like at Columbia. She wore a hijab in support and has been to Indonesia several times (was fluent at one point) which is very Muslim as you know. But when she made both a Hanukah and Passover diners those same kids about 30 of all races and religions came to her dinners put on with each other and the 6 Jewish kids on campus. Actually held at a Professors house. She did the same at Beloit. It’s a beautiful thing. Every one learning and enjoying each other’s culture. This to me is one factor what college is all about.
She was living in the theater house second year and we brought food for the 20 kids living in it. This was over like Rosh Hashshona. It quickly got out to many that there was “real” food on campus. Some catholic girl that lived in Iowa on a farm yells out. “OMG, there is Challah bread” . We all cracked up and she said she had it once visiting a friend in New York.
But they let the word out and many more kids came to eat the “Jewish” food. (brisket and such). We had a great time and such a joy for us.
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Quoting myself from a different thread as an attempt to answer the original question posed here. This quote refers to the benefits of diversity generally, which would be one of the goals in why a university would seek to have a diverse student body.
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Ultimately, we need to get to the point where diversity of thought is what is valued.
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Well your gonna get your money’s worth here . I totally forgot. The most important diversity for her was acceptance of LGBTQ since she’s gay. Being part of the theater department was a natural at IWU but Beloit was just overall more accepting. Again, the eye test was evident. Talk about fit and feel for selecting colleges. No question that was Beloit college. It’s such a diamond in the rough. We know many students that had great experiences there. OK. Think I am done 
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Your view on diversity is the goal but not the actualization. Personal observation, experience and discussion with many who have aimed at “diversity” for years with resources and good intentions yield a similar conclusion or frustration. Although college may anecdotally give some an opportunity to get to know a diverse community, the melting pot rarely if ever materializes even in the face of student centers and admissions intentions.
In actuality, many students go to college to “find their people”. A south asian student, a native american student, a jewish student, a black student may have grown up as one of a handful or less of minorities in their school district, let alone grade or class. Some of these kids, understandably, see college as a chance for a change. Being the “diverse” person in a sea of “others” is not always awesomely fun.
Is there any science behind a claim that college demographics should mirror the local, regional or national socioeconomic, racial or religious profile? Or the profile that Yale arbitrarily chooses to serve its own interests? In some cases, colleges seem happy to tolerate over-representation and under-representation. In others, they actively work against this. How can both serve “diversity”? Who has proven that 50% boys and 50% girls on campus is “better” than 70% girls and 30% boys? In some ways, I could imagine both the boys and girls thinking the latter is better. We are fast heading there unless boys get quite a bit of “contextual” help.
Diversity sounds good, but in application, it becomes a cloak of invisibility for all the secret agendas, unsound preferences and pet projects of private universities that receive a lot of their funding from the public sector. And that cloak and those preferences cause real societal harm.
How many “chance me” posts on CC start with GPA and then race? In a generation of students who are ostensibly less race conscious than their parents, Colleges have been a giant gravitational fixture that keeps students thinking of whether their one Latino grandparent or their Asian father will be a benefit or liability. That’s the kind of social sickness that secrecy and pet projects has inflicted on our kids. Isn’t such acute racial consciousness the opposite of the goals of “diversity”? First, we make students acutely aware of their race as part of the application, then we expect everyone to mix freely right after admission? Yeah right.
After SFFA, as long as we have secrecy and lack of transparency, we’ll see more wacky and pathological distortions. We already have a massive influx of violists (who really wants to hear solo viola), tuba players, fencing stars, all kids and parents chasing that elusive “uniqueness”. To what end? In reality, “diversity” as a goal breeds gamesmenship, gross distortions, dysfunction and sadness. Isn’t it better for a community if a lot of people play tennis, or basketball? Then students can actually connect outside of class while having fun. Instead, unless you compete in the junior US Open, your tennis is meaningless. If the goal is social mixing, my money is on the 5 mediocre basketball players getting a pick-up team together than the olympic kayaker, Julliard violist, and IMO math champ all deciding to share a pizza. If you want mixing, you really can’t have all chiefs, you also need indians.
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However, it is also common for students to attend K-12 schools were there is not a lot of racial/ethnic diversity, due to residential segregation (including the effects of “White Flight”) and resulting school segregation (example: https://resources.finalsite.net/images/v1695936378/fuhsdorg/u0gdhbrlbwmchkyd0ofw/SchoolProfile23_24final.pdf ). Hence, for many students, colleges are more diverse than their K-12 schools.
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