<p>All our science courses AP or not have labs in addition to the regular class. Usually they alternate every other day with either gym or health. Conflicts are par for the course, but I agree that having calculus at the same time as both Chem and Physics is nutty. And I do think a good school ought to offer BC Calc.</p>
<p>I don’t think that it’s easier per se- but it’s got to be less time consuming to take a semester’s worth of material over the course of a year, with no lab, vs. to take a year’s worth of material, including labwork, over the course of a year. That’s what the kids “feel” as being difficult- the volume of material, not the actual material itself.</p>
<p>Same thing for Calc AB vs. Calc BC. Calc AB is one semester of math spread out over a year (say, 8 chapters) vs. two semesters of math spread out over a year (say, 16 chapters). It’s a quantity issue, which means more homework in less time, more studying in less time.</p>
<p>Some “semester” courses are taught over a hs semester and some over a hs year. At our hs, Macro and Gov (semester courses) were taught over a semester. Most of the kids felt these classes were more difficult, and tended to do worse on the exams. Psych, OTOH, was taught over a year, and the kids seemed to feel the class itself is easier and that they do better on the exam. </p>
<p>I suspect that there is actually no difference in the difficulty of the material itself in all three of these classes; but that it’s the fact that covering it over a year allows for more in depth study and a slower pace in AP Psych, which makes the experience much more palatable and facilitates success on the final exam.</p>
<p>Point taken. </p>
<p>You are right.</p>
<p>Definitely true of sciences.</p>
<p>Based on my experience (and my own AP Calc experience way back when) I think the vast majority of Calc kids are of the math whiz variety and it is not a big stretch. Most excel and score well on the exam.</p>
<p>Psych is a discipline that they haven’t a lot of practical educational experience with and, so, it possibly may require more application on the students’ parts. Just my theory.</p>
<p>Interesting differences in how APs are handled at schools. Seems like the too many schools are playing games with AP and perhaps that is why the AP system is requiring a major national audit.</p>
<p>Our large public high school offers only 6, 1-hour periods a day. Science (and all) AP’s are one period inlcuding lab. One year only. Kids have mid-Sept to May since school starts later. Sophomores are only allowed to take AP World (and the kids must be really ready for the rigor of AP). There are a few exceptional sophomores in AP Calc, and Music Theory. Students must take general chem before AP Chem. AP’s are not for any one who wants in.</p>
<p>However, students must be approved to enter the AP classes. But, any student who qualifies, gets in and there is a space for them. . Students are expected to behave like college students and do a ton of outside work. AP classes are supposed to be like that! </p>
<p>Science classes do not conflict with each other or calc because most kids are taking calc and at least one science. Few kids take Psych or the other “easy” AP’s. Most kids are in the hard sciences, calc, history (APUS, Euro, World), English and the languages. Small sections of Music Theory, Stats and Art History</p>
<p>Our kids tend to score 4’s and 5’s. Seems like they have the right approach.</p>
<p>I have seen a sort of evolution in the thinking of parents, and even administrators, in our school over the past six years. At the beginning, our school prided itself on the rigorous college prep curriculum it offered. “No mickey mouse stuff here…solid intense demanding curriculum.” When my kids started, this was the selling point and the draw- that this school would be more challenging and rigorous than the public counterparts. </p>
<p>Fast forward 4 or 5 years…parents see that it ain’t so fun for their average/above average student to struggle for As and Bs. They see their kid’s GPA going down the toilet over a D or F in AP Physics. They listen to their neighbor tell them how “easy” their kids have it at the local public hs, and see these same kids getting into the state flagship when their private school kids are not, because said flagship wants 4.0 GPAs.</p>
<p>Next thing you know, our hs started offering alternative math and science classes- ecology and astronomy instead of bio and physics; AP Psych and Enviro instead of AP Chem and Bio; creation of additional elective classes in stuff like “TV and motion pictures in the 70’s”; giving Honors designation to certain students in music and art if they were in their senior year; 7 (yes seven) sections of weightlifting…</p>
<p>IOW, they opened up more and more “easy A” classes. As far as I’m concerned, the face of the school has completely changed. It is no longer more rigorous than the average public up the street.</p>
<p>I believe that most of these changes have come from an administration bending to parents who give lip service to wanting a solid challenging education for their kids, but wanting it to be easy at the same time. It’s the classic “doing A but hoping for B”…I WANT my kid to go to an uber-competitive, super-challenging high school, but I don’t want my kid to have to sacrifice sports, social life, GPA, etc…</p>
<p>Our school has very few AP classes but we do have Honors classes that are challenging. Such level Science classes require two periods due to labs, two times per week, and one period the other three times per week. So, this sort of eats up two periods in one’s daily schedule all five days (with study hall supposedly one period three times per week). However, they have tried to schedule some things into those three days per week around labs because this involves the top students who are not seeking study halls three days per week. I think they were trying to put gym or similar in there but that may be after my kids left. What they did do when my kids attended and my kids did this, is to schedule Jazz Theory classes three days per week around science labs. Often the better students in the school also are the ones trying to fit in music courses.</p>
<p>At my oldest daughters- private competitive for admission but not as focused on grades for attending student as Lakeside, prep school, they don’t have AP courses. ( or IB- or weighted for honors)</p>
<p>Most students go on to very demanding schools, even without AP courses- Reed, Uchicago,UPenn, Carleton.
They don’t offer ecology and astronomy ( where would you get the idea that astronomy would be less demanding- don’t you need calculus based physics to take astronmoy?), but that is more a function of the small size of the school, (Ds graduating class was 18- most classes are a little bigger)</p>
<p>For some reason, US schools offer biology first- then chem-then physics-
Students, if they have enough math-can take Calc junior year, then go on to take Calc based physics senior year. Other students are taking Calc senior year, which either cuts physics out, or if their school offers it can take algebra based physics- which is what younger D will be taking.</p>
<p>She isn’t choosing her AP courses on interest, but on the teacher- as I advised her. Doesn’t matter what the course is called IMO, if the teacher is engaging, accessible and has a strong grasp of the material and has high expectations of the students, she will learn more in a general class, than in a class that “sounds” more rigorous.</p>
<p>Now her school doesn’t weight either- and admittedly that hurts her class rank, but I don’t know how else to do it. She and her friends don’t change their classes for easier ones, just so they will have a higher GPA- the bottom line is- what will prepare them for what they want to do?
Not taking weightlifting- keyboarding- American popular film ( although I did take an American Popular Music theory class at the Community College, by a prof who now teaches at Northwestern & while it was actually a lot of work, it was one of the best courses I ever had- that I attribute to the instructor), and so on. THose classes may boost your GPA but I think students are doing themselves a disservice if that is what they focus on.</p>
<p>"where would you get the idea that astronomy would be less demanding- don’t you need calculus based physics to take astronmoy? "</p>
<p>It depends on where it’s taught, how it’s taught, who teaches it…this particular course has NO prerequisites, including math.</p>
<p>well while my older D did take physics as a freshman in high school, I think physics and astronomy would be covered better after they have precalc ( and chem) at least.</p>
<p>I think the school is doing students a disservice by not requiring strong grounding in core sciences- like Bio & Chem- I understand that some students aren’t necessarily thinking of college- & those are the ones who usually take Environmental type science classes ( although I did assist on field trips and in the classroom with the Enviromental class- and I was impressed- plus the kids were a lot of fun- the only reason I even got to help, is because my daughter * wasn’t* in that class 
)</p>
<p>But IMO- the reason why we have requirements- is because “kids” may be thinking of short term satisfaction, not long term choices.
I know high schools just require blank years of science and math to graduate- without specifying courses ( or at least our state does), but
Id like to see students taking at least through pre-calc or statistics & at least a year apiece of Biology and Chem- and also preferably physics</p>
<p>My D isn’t going to our neighborhood high school- because to be on the Bio-Chem-Physics track you had to have had a certain level of math by 9th grade. ( because of her learning difference and her weak middle school prep, she wasn’t)
- Her school* allowed you to take Biology in 9th grade- and she had enough math for that- by the time she took Chemistry in 11th, she had caught up to grade level in math, if she had stayed at the other school she would have been forced to be on the Environmental science- General science track.</p>
<p>One thing her school does do however- is generally limit students to core requirements- students can’t take more than one science at a time, because other students need to take it as well. Since the district only funds classes a day- ( although high schools usually juggle money to offer 6 periods), after English,History, Foreign Lang, Math and Science- they still have to fit in 1.5 of PE,.5 of Health and 1.5 of Occ Ed ( which the director of Oc Ed is trying to increase- gee thanks 
)</p>
<p>You can get out of the PE requirement- by participating in a school sport which she has done- and she is taking Oc Ed classes, but it does make it hard to get a strong college prep courseload.</p>
<p>For some of her friends for example, who have been in the award winning jazz band or orchestra- who spend time tutoring elementary students in their instrument, and may even be earning college tuition by playing around town- music isn’t considered an occupational course ( this is from the school that graduated Quincy Jones- and if he hasn’t made music his occupation, I don’t know who has)-the district decides what counts as occ ed though and they increased the requirement over the state.</p>
<p>If schools have enough seats in science classes so that students are able to take two or more a year- I think that is great- but they really have a responsibilty to the students to make sure they have the basics.</p>
<p>Scanned the posts. AP Psych and Econ are semester courses here. Only the single class hour for any course, lab or not. Hard to get teachers to teach AP courses, and to have them qualified to do so- unions, etc. involved in the time and costs. Also hard for the teachers to have the time to do a good job, again starting in Sept and finishing in June- leaves almost a month of school after the exam. Son ended up taking a semester of AP music theory opposite his phy ed semester as a soph when he couldn’t get a comp sci class to fit his schedule (he did well, but did not do the full year so he did not take the AP test)- he also had AP US History that semester. Interesting how different schools do things. We’re in a blue collar city where the ESL and special ed programs take a chunk of the school budget, but we also have the district GT coordinator. I was pleasantly surprised that our son could get a good college preparation, even though I know there are places he could have gotten even more. </p>
<p>Utopia does not exist.</p>
<p>This thread highlights the spectrum of educational philosophies across the board, which certainly contributes to the ambiguity and subjectivity rampant in the admissions process. Every school is trying to get a leg up on the competition and shore up its reputation. AP is simply one aspect of this “game.” </p>
<p>This is also why AP in and of itself is not that impressive and why many top schools hold the policies they do regarding credit and advanced standing. AP courses must cover a certain curriculum but the approach and grade inflation, not to mention weighting, varies as widely as do HS’s from coast to coast.</p>
<p>FYI: Here AP Physics B is taken concurrently with Honors Precalc in Jr yr, and Physics C is taken with AP Calc in Sr yr, as a rule. Some similar local districts encourage any Physics to be taken with Calc which is probably better for the student. Env Sci is popular now, because global warming is a hot topic. Look at the explosion on environmental programs at colleges. Around here, the buzz is easy class and difficult exam.</p>
<p>Even though my D is taking a full complement in the fall as a Sr, I remain generally unimpressed by AP. Some AP teachers are superior to Honors section teachers and others are not. The fact is, that for a top student, there are few alternatives in a school that is AP-happy and determined to maintain its prestigious reputation. And IMHO, AP tends to turn out cookie-cutter kids–cannot distinguish one from the other her. Probably why our school has also seen a boon in independent research in all disciplines, not just sciences.</p>
<p>Sometimes so-called easy courses or electives can be more beneficial to a student. MY D, for example, took several Law and Forensic Science electives which are considered easy A’s. She’s interested in the justice system and psychology so these courses were a fit for her. (She did, of course have a full complement of AP and Honors, and these were additional not substitute.) There were many students who coasted through and earned a grade in the 90-95 range (not bad) whereas she earned 100’s. However, her experience differed greatly from the average. D joined moot court and excelled, and did research on constitutional topics that appealed to her. Also in Forensic Science, she eschewed the standard assignments (with the blessing of the instructor) and handed in lengthy research papers on forensic topics related to psych. These courses gave her the opportunity to explore options for the future with the support and guidance of someone with some expertise. Plus it excited and motivated her. That’s a win-win in my book.</p>
<p>There are always ways to work within a flawed system which will suit the individual; it merely requires some ingenuity and drive. As with anything in life, your education is what you make of it, no matter what kind of school you attend.</p>
<p>“Around here, the buzz is easy class and difficult exam.” [Env. Sci.]</p>
<p>Yes. We were surprised to learn that my D was among only half of the students who passed the exam at her school. Included both jrs. & seniors. This is noteworthy because it’s a school that i.m.o. & the opinions of both my D’s, prepares & even over-prepares for the AP exam (in addition to asking for a lot more from students for class performance). Given that the overall pass rate for all AP’s at this school is quite high, this exam would probably be second to lowest.</p>
<p>At our school, after the students take the AP exams there are still a few weeks left in the school year. The AP teachers generally require the students do a lengthy, college level research paper–going through a number of drafts with guidance and commentary-- which the students turn in instead of taking a final exam.</p>
<p>For the posters who never heard of double-period AP classes – at my daughter’s high school, AP Bio was two periods a day, and the other lab classes (Chemistry and Physics) met 7 or 8 periods a week. Different schools have different approaches.</p>
<p>Chemistry here was two periods; Biology was one with after school sessions 3 times a week; Physics (C) was one period a day.</p>
<p>The high school where we live --small town-- only offers 7 or 8 AP classes, and nothing is designated as “honors.” It’s just a whole different universe than some of the schools I read about here. </p>
<p>I wonder, though, when I read the outstanding academics from posters here --their gazillion AP classes and scores of 5-- doesn’t this create a situation where the strongest candidates to the top colleges all have a sort of uniform nationalized curriculum? That’s unfortunate, in my opinion.</p>
<p>My son is an oddball. He has taken a couple AP classes at the high school (he’s not a full-time student there anyway) but not because they were AP. He just took them because they were classes he wanted with teachers he wanted. He’s done the same thing taking classes at the local public univ., just following his interests there into more and more challenging courses.</p>
<p>He’ll probably sink like a stone in the college admissions process if they’re really intent on counting up AP classes on transcripts. He has most definitely not followed the nationalized curriculum. LOL.</p>
<p>SOM
Colleges ask if the student took the most rigorous curriculum offered. They don’t just add APs. Your S is dual enrolled at local U, which demonstrates his commitment to learn. My S took 12 college classes, rather than take AP Psych or AP Envir Science. His college classes, in math, econ, Latin, & science, were in keeping with his interests. There was no “gaming”, just a natural trajectory of interests.</p>
<p>I’d support your S taking classes he likes, & building his unique profile.</p>
<p>Thanks, bookworm. I do support him completely. His interests have led him, even as a “high school junior” (we don’t really do the grade level thing, either) into upper division college classes in poli sci and philosophy. He’ll do more of that next year as “senior” too. In fact, when he took AP US History at the high school year before last, I thought it was appalling in how those classes are almost 100% test-prep. Not saying they shouldn’t be, because that’s why kids sign-up for them often - to do well on the test - but it seemed a shame to spend a whole year on test prep. He got a 5 on the test, and he loved the teacher, but I think it left him less interested in doing more test-prep classes at the high school, and more interested in exploring the classes available at the local univ. where the profs could approach the material more creatively and idiosyncratically.</p>
<p>Since we couldn’t be playing the Ultimate AP Game for college admissions anyway (it’s just not available here) even if we wanted to (he doesn’t) he’s going to have to present himself as what he is – a smart kid who follows his own path.</p>
<p>Similar, but not same situation. My school only offers 5 (6 this year) AP Classes. But, they schedule them all on top of each other. So, basically you can’t take more than 3 a year (if you are lucky). So, because you can’t take as many, our school prides itself on having students do well on APs.</p>