Do high schools play the AP game?

Parents Forum
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<p>Here’s the situation at my friend’s son’s local public “highly regarded college prep” high school…</p>

<p>It’s a school of choice, very academic, only above average students go there. It prides itself on the AP record (“our students score 4 and above 90% of the time, 90% of our students are AP scholars, blah, blah, blah”).</p>

<p>My friend’s son signed up for AP Calc and AP Bio, and was given a whole bunch of “pre-homework” to do over the summer. He gets his schedule last week, and finds out that there is only ONE each of AP Calc, Bio, Chem, and Physics offered and they are offered at the same time, so he gets knocked out of one. If that doesn’t stick in his craw, get a load of this…</p>

<p>The school only offers one of each of those maths/sciences, but offers MULTIPLE sections each of stats, environmental science, psychology, and other softer classes. In other words (so my friend and I have figured out), these classes are easier, the students will tend to score better (who wouldn’t score better on a one-semester college equivalent that is spread out over an entire year?), and the school looks great! Meanwhile, students like my friend who want to study engineering, get to take crap classes instead of the ones that would truly set him up for success at a tough engineering university.</p>

<p>We think this is a game the school is playing. It makes itself look better, and the students are able to rack up “more” APs because they aren’t taking the really tough ones. For a school that sells itself as the premiere college prep high school in the area, it’s selling students a bag of hot air.</p>

<p>Oh and by the way, that one AP Calc? It’s AP Calc AB, not BC.</p>

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<p>Regarding the scheduling- consider that students may be taking those courses in different years. Planning around this would be necessary, but those at the school will plan to take certain AP courses as sophs, jrs, srs to avoid conflicts. Calc AB is much more common than BC. As to “softer” classes, that depends on your bias- math/science versus lit/social science (do you want writing or problem sets?)…I only see a problem if students who start as freshmen also have scheduling problems. Only having one section of each course is driven by the popularity of them (think budgets and tax dollars). I wonder what the impact on other students is, how many others have complaints. BTW, not getting AP courses is not the end of the world for getting into and succeeding at top colleges. With easy courses the student can have time to study for and still take the AP exams, and get top scores as well as the college preparation. Interesting how things go- no summer prep, can take AP courses and get 5’s on the AP exams…in blue collar town. The caliber of that school may be better than the others in its district, which makes me glad we had ours. I’m actually rather pleased son will be forced to take a higher caliber lit course in college because schedule conflicts prevented him from taking both AP lit courses in HS (he probably got a better honors level language course as the substitute according to good powers that be, and it was an unpopular foreign language that conflicted- two single classes meeting at the same time which couldn’t be moved to not ruin other’s schedules).</p>

<p>The above said, I can see your reasons for being upset. “Looks good on paper” but the reality is far different. Reminds me that when I see the AP courses listed for any HS it is also important to know the feasibility of taking them. My sympathies for the student and good luck to him in making lemonade from the lemons.</p>

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<p>Just to clarify- by “softer” classes I was referring only to the alternative math and science classes, not language arts and humanities. IOW, there were multiple sections EACH of environmental science, psych, and stats; only one section each of calc, chem, bio, physics. Doesn’t that seem odd; it does to me.</p>

<p>At this school, students are discouraged from taking APs until their junior year. There is one exception to this- they may take AP World History in their soph year. Students interested in science supposedly take reg/honors bio as frosh, reg/honors chem as soph, then AP bio or chem as a junior, AP bio or chem as well as AP physics as a senior. (But obviously the way they’ve scheduled these classes make that impossible) They also take calc in their junior year at the earliest.</p>

<p>It just seems heavily weighted toward enviro-sci and psych, and a discouragement to those who really want to get a solid background in the heavy-weights. Which is odd for a school that sells itself as the premier academic college prep public school.</p>

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<p>It may very well be a result of staffing. Not every teacher is qualified/wants to teach AP Physics/Chem/Calc.</p>

<p>Enviro and Psych require less training and are more popular among students BECAUSE they are ‘easier’.</p>

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<p>It doesn’t make any sense at all that a school would offer AP Calculus and AP Physics at the same time. Obviously it’s going to be the same kids taking both classes.</p>

<p>But I think that the friend should consider getting a group of parents together to go complain. The friend’s son can’t be the only aggrieved student.</p>

<p>For what it may be worth, my high school set up AP classes so they didn’t conflict.</p>

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<p>You have to prove the overlap that a certain number of kids want to take both.</p>

<p>This happened all the time at my school, which was smaller. That’s just how scheduling is.</p>

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<p>I agree with the need to lobby for non-overlapped scheduling, but with regard to the offerings in general, it sounds as if they expect a lot fewer students to qualify even to take the harder AP’s. Yes, you’re right that it “looks good” for a school, of course, to boast a 90% rate of a 4+ score on AP exams, but it looks even better to have those scores in heavier classes, with a <90% pass. At my D’s school, they have lots of the harder classes (fewer of the easier, & rarely 2 sections of anything), & their pass rate for all AP’s are lumped together, which is something like 77%. The school would much rather do that, since they know they will have a small group each year applying to Ivies, MIT, Stanford, & about half of those students will be science students. Parents paying a premium price for a fancy education also want to know that the students are really competitive for selective colleges, not just for in-state publics! :)</p>

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<p>My D attends a large public HS on LI (NY) which is nationally ranked in top 100. Every year she has conflicts in her sked even with multiple sections offered. In a few weeks we’ll know what the damage is for her Sr yr.</p>

<p>Her HS offers 21 AP’s and still some students take additional ones on their own. There are online courses and syllabi that you can obtain for a fee to teach yourself for the exam. D is considering doing French Lit independently because only French Lang is offered.</p>

<p>Once upon a time here, at D’s HS, only top students were selected for AP. AP’s and Honors are now self-selected (no recs needed) and encouraged even for those students not at the top. More kids actually take the “harder classes” here because guidance constantly bombards them with “you’re not getting into a good school” if you don’t take more AP’s. Last year for example Srs looked like this: 66 took Calc & 11 took Stats; 78 took Physics, 36 took Bio, 14 took Chem & 14 took Env Sci; 32 took Psych. Largest enrollment was Macro with 186, followed by Eng Lit at 128 & Gov’t at 108. Various Language, Music and Art sections all under 20. </p>

<p>FYI: Sciences create the most conflicts because they also require an additional lab period. Many going the premed or engineering route will take 2 sciences in Jr year and 1 or 2 in Sr year due to this.</p>

<p>Social sciences are more popular majors with larger enrollment at most colleges, so it’s understandable that more HS students would want to take these types of AP’s as a foundation. My D is planning to double major in college, and is planning on taking AP Psych, Stats & Bio Sr yr to avoid having to take intro courses in college, not because they are easier.</p>

<p>Last year she went into her guidance meeting with 5 AP’s on her sked & came out with 7. (Yes, 5 was not enough evidently.) She wanted to take an honors section instead of an AP in one discipline because she has a great relationship with the teacher. This particular teacher recognizes her strengths and will allow her to do independent research on topics of interest to her. Whereas, in the AP section she will be just a number doing the dull assignments like everyone else. AP isn’t always the superior experience. Honestly, doesn’t anyone remember how generally uninspiring college freshman survey courses were. </p>

<p>At any rate, all schools have their particular “games” that they play, but I can’t imagine that colleges are not hip to them. They will see a school’s profile and enrollment distribution for these classes, so really, where is the mystery then? HS’s and colleges reinforce each other’s “games” as far as I’m concerned.</p>

<p>If you want change, in my experience, you have to attack the power centers --Board of Ed, Superintendent, Principal, Teachers’ Union, etc. Schools are basically just bureaucracies. They want you to leave the important decisions to the “professionals.” In my town, the parents are better educated than the majority of teachers (no offense to any teachers on here–just the facts specific to where I reside.) You need organization and strength in numbers. Get a task force to do a study of viable alternatives-- with parents on committee. Only way to go, IMHO.</p>

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<p>They do? Not in our high schools…they are scheduled the same as every other class. Our students also take the AP exams having a lot fewer hours, too, since we start school after Labor Day and the AP exams are at the beginning of May. Some areas of the country start the school year up to a month ahead of us.</p>

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<p>Yes, we start after labor day, as well. Our periods are 42 mins. 9 periods in a day. Science classes are 2 periods. 1 for lecture & 1 for lab. Do you have traditional or block scheduling? Sometimes that makes a difference.</p>

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<p>At d’s high school, AP Psych has the most sections. Calc BC has only one section. Why? Because of the number of kids who sign up for them. The multiple psych sections are full, and the calc section still has room if anyone decided to sign up. It’s not a question of “playing the game”; it’s a question of meeting the students’ demand.</p>

<p>What I agree is unfair is that a student is expected to prep over the summer for a class he can’t take. He should have gotten his schedule before hand.</p>

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<p>I see nothing unusual or wrong about only offering one section of each of those classes because they create the number of sections based on demand. More kids obviously are taking the “lighter” AP or other classes at the school. </p>

<p>What I think is worthy of advocating is the way there appears to be an obvious schedule conflict, though advocating would be best if it affects many kids and there is power in numbers. I can see how AP Bio and AP Chem may conflict as students could take one in junior year and one in senior year. They are both high level science classes and kids have to pick one. But I can’t see having Calculus and Physics conflicting. Many seniors, of the high end sort, need to take both of those senior year. I think the school should construct the schedule and think about which sorts of kids need which sorts of classes and knowing there is just one section of Calc and Physics, to make sure that those are not at the same time. I know in our much smaller school, they definitely do not put Calculus and Physics (of which we have only one section of each) at the same time as it involves the same seniors.</p>

<p>I don’t know if this person can find out if other peers are affected in the same way (such as a Physics/Calc conflict). In fact, it sounds like the highest math class and the highest science classes, (all three…AP Bio, AP Chem and AP Physics) are all offered at the same time. That would mean that a top student would have no way to take the hardest math and one fo the hardest science classes in senior year. That makes no sense. I would imagine this affects more than one student.</p>

<p>My younger child ran into something similar but it was not the school’s fault as to how they constructed the schedule because at our school, they really build the schedule so that students taking the hardest classes in a particular grade level can do so in each subject…these are not scheduled at the same time. But in my younger child’s junior year, which was also her last year of HS (early graduate), she was up to AP Calculus which is NOT the norm at our school. The top students reach Calculus in senior year. Both my kids accelerated beyond what is the normal acceleration here and so got to Calculus as juniors but were the only kid in that situation. So, while Calculus is scheduled (only ONE section offered) so as to not conflict with the highest level classes in the other subjects for seniors, she was in the highest level of an integrated English/History class for JUNIORS (it was her junior year) and THAT class which she had to take for those subjects conflicted with AP Calculus which was her math level. Others taking AP Calculus did not have this conflict with their high level of English and History as seniors. So, in order to take AP Calculus, my D had to do it as an independent study under the supervision of the math dept. head one period per day. She had no “class” but was given all the assignments and tests and sat in his office one period per day. Each of my kids have done such indep. studies before and they do well in such situations. So, that is an alternative to pursue for the OP’s friend. </p>

<p>I agree with Chedva, too, that a student should only have to do the required summer homework for a course he/she is enrolled in for the fall. Our kids knew their schedules for the following year by the time school let out the prior year. They were also given summer homework for the high end classes.</p>

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<p>I agree with you Chedva. My D has several summer assignments and will not find out what her actual sked looks like until the end of the month.</p>

<p>Demand, however, is engineered and manipulated at our school. Courses like Calc and Physics are strongly “encouraged.” That really translates to strong-arming and intimidating. Contracts are signed and deadlines imposed with no changes allowed. If that’s not a form of gamesmanship, what is? </p>

<p>Lots more kids would love to take Psych but simply cannot squeeze it in if they’re taking 2 sciences with labs, calc, eng, gov’t, macro and a foreign lang plus other reqs like health and PE. And what if they are in band or chorus or art?</p>

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<p>This happened once at our school when the schedule overlapped, and several students wanted to take both classes. The schedule was changed to accommodate them.</p>

<p>What our school started doing to make science lab classes easier is teaching them over 3 semesters instead of 2. (Our school is on block schedule, so usually classes meet every other day. For AP Chem, Bio and Physics they meet every other day one semester, and every day second semester). I guess it also can count as “gaming”, but seems like a better way to do it…</p>

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<p>If this happened to this young man, it is happening to others. He can’t possibly be the only student at this high school who wants to take an AP core science and math. The GCs response was sort of “so what. no big deal…just take enviro, who cares, it’s still an AP, it still looks good, what difference does it make…” We’re figuring that kind of attitude pervades the thinking of the students and no wonder the school ends up with the majority of kids taking enviro and psych instead of bio, chem, and physics.</p>

<p>My sons went to another private school and although I can complain about other stuff that went on there, never once would the GC or admin have taken lightly that a student was unable to get key classes. If anything, the enviro and psych classes were treated sort of like electives…you do them after you’ve exhausted the main courses. Or they were taken by students who were primarily focused on social studies/humanities. If a student went into the GC at our old hs wanting to go into engineering or science, she would have been steered/encouraged to take AP Calc, Chem, Physics, and Bio first and foremost!</p>

<p>If at this school, even a third of the students aspire to science or engineering, the way it’s set up now, the students are NOT going to get a solid basis for highly competitive universities. Just as a foreign language major wanna-be would want/need higher level language classes in high school, a math/science/engineering major wanna-be needs those core APs. And this school is not a regular high school…it’s a college prep school of choice (there are very limited sports), and students must be at or above average to attend, so an inability to do the work does not apply here.</p>

<p>BTW, I’ve never heard of AP Bio taking up two periods. At our high school it was taught in one 47 minute period per day. They got through everything, including labs (it was, however, a LOT of work!) Every student in the course scored a 5. My son also scored in the 90+ percentile on the SAT II. Of course our school started in mid August. The bio teacher at our school is phenomenal.</p>

<p>I think it’s a terrible message to send to kids who are sincerely trying to prepare themselves for college that it doesn’t really matter and all that counts is how many APs you get and what the final score is. What happened to the emphasis on learning? Has the AP system created a sort of “conservatism” approach to selecting courses?</p>

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<p>"What our school started doing to make science lab classes easier is teaching them over 3 semesters instead of 2. "</p>

<p>My son’s school scheduled AP Bio first period. His was a private school, so all the students drove themselves to school (or their parents drove them). Many, many times he went to school early in the morning (about 30 minutes earlier) to set up and start the labs. This was a frequent occurence. I actually think it worked out very well (but can see how it wouldn’t in a school with public transportation), because it allowed the kids to still take a full compliment of other classes. The school offered 7 courses in a normal school day, so students graduated with at least 28 credits to their name.</p>

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<p>Maybe I’m a cynic, but at $86 a pop and the top kids at our HS practically brainwashed into taking 6 or 7, and with school reps and profiles and funding at stake–I think it’s economically driven from both ends.</p>

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<p>At our school AP Biology is a 2 class period class. It meets every day for 90 minutes for the entire school year.</p>

<p>AP Chem and Physics are offered on an alternating basis (chem this year, physics next year) so a student can take one junior year and one senior year. These classes are 90 minutes a day every other day all year.</p>

<p>There are more sections of AP psyc. It is most in demand AP class.</p>

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<p>AP Psych is also the only class without a math requirement. You don’t have to have taken precal in order to take AP Psych (unlike say AP Physics).</p>

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<p>AP Psych gets a bad rap as an easy course because people don’t consider it a hard science. I agree that it’s not a hard science even though some colleges and universities insist on treating it like one. It’s relationship with Neuroscience has given Psych a new cachet as a major.</p>

<p>Just because it has no math prereq doesn’t mean it’s easy either. It requires analytical skills. You have to think and there is a lot of reading. It’s not just formulas. </p>

<p>It’s suddenly become more popular (and probably more challenging) at our HS (enrollment has nearly tripled for next year) as a result of the new instructor coming from a top tier university. Everyone thinks that his rec will get them in! (LOL)</p>