Do kids learn more at Dana Hall than at Deerfield?

Prep School Admissions
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<p>More at Hotchkiss than Andover? Not trying to throw stones here, just interested in the topic and am using those examples for discussion purposes. When looking at various schools SSAT / SAT score data currently published on the Boarding School Review website, it shows that the comparative scores at some schools improve a lot and others not so much. It’s a simple analysis and doesn’t consider statistical bell curve deviation (empirical rule), but I wonder if it’s a valid indication of the quality of education at a given school? Here are a few examples -</p>

<p>Dana Hall - Average Percentile SSAT = 62%
Average Percentile SAT = 85%
Change = +23</p>

<p>Deerfield - Average Percentile SSAT = 88%
Average Percentile SAT = 94%
Change = +6</p>

<p>Hotchkiss - Average Percentile SSAT = 83%
Average Percentile SAT = 94%
Change = +11</p>

<p>Vermont Academy- Average Percentile SSAT = 50%
Average Percentile SAT = 49%
Change = -1</p>

<p>Andover - Average Percentile SSAT = 93%
Average Percentile SAT = 96%
Change = +3</p>

<p>Governor’s - Average Percentile SSAT = 75%
Average Percentile SAT = 81%
Change = +6</p>

<p>Cate - Average Percentile SSAT = 80%
Average Percentile SAT = 92%
Change = +12</p>

<p>Middlesex - Average Percentile SSAT = 87%
Average Percentile SAT = 96%
Change = +9</p>

<p>Here’s the SAT percentile conversion chart - <a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/sat_percentile_ranks_2008_composite_cr_m_w.pdf[/url]”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board;

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<p>I think this is an interesting topic, but it may be comparing things that aren’t directly comparable.

  1. The SSAT compares students with others who also took the SSAT and were therefore considering private school. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were a higher scoring group than the overall high school population. Many more students take the SAT, so an improvement in a kid’s percentile performance could be due at least in part to a difference in the pool taking the test, not to any improvement in performance . To be a fair comparison, we’d have to know the SAT percentile out of the pool of kids who had also taken the SSAT. Could be that the SAT percentiles are relatively unchanged. </p>

<ol>
<li> When you are already at a percentile like 88% (Deerfield SSAT), it’s impossible to improve more than 11 percentile points. The Dana Hall girls, however, have more room to improve, with 37 points to play with. So, it’s not really appropriate to compare the percentile points directly.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>Having said all that, I love Dana Hall and its wonderful teachers and girls, and I am sure that a motivated student learns just as much there as at Deerfield! </p>

<p>I’m not sure what the Vermont Academy numbers mean.</p>

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<p>I just realized that Vermont Academy accommodates LD students and probably shouldn’t have been cited. My apology, it was just a number that caught my eye when I was quickly scanning BSR.</p>

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<p>If you took the current figures from Boarding School Review, you’re probably comparing last year’s seniors’ SAT results to the SSAT results of this year’s freshmen. To make a fair comparison, you’d need to track down the SSAT scores of last year’s graduating seniors. You’d also need to include the scores of students who joined the class as it progressed through the school, and subtract the scores of the students who left/were asked to leave.</p>

<p>It probably has something to do with the shape of the two overlapping bell curves. The prep school kids may be given a boost by the shared emphasis on writing. This may bump up their writing scores, compared to the national pool.</p>

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<p>Those Hotchkiss numbers are, well, a disgrace. No wonder Hotchkiss is now a mid-level TIER II school.</p>

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<p>Quite frankly, I would not put a lot of stock in BSR’s numbers. They are quite often inaccurate or out of date.</p>

<p>However, even if these are correct numbers, there are a lot of things that go into the mix.</p>

<p>Say for example, a particular school takes in broad range of test scores - some developmentals, some who are there because they are a stud athlete and marginal academically. Another school isn’t as broad in the students it accepts, keeping it in a narrow range. Let’s say both schools increase their SSAT to SAT percentile 10% - a decent value add, in most people’s mind. However, at the first school, a significant percentage of the developmentals (who didn’t prep for the SSAT like all the CCer’s here) struggle with being away from home and some of those stud athletes with marginal SSATs wash out academically. You can engineer a 10% gain in scores by subtraction. What I am saying here is that the scores reported aren’t necessarily of the same students. It is of the entering frosh/sophs and the exiting SRs and PGs. Lots of things happen along the way.</p>

<p>Unless you track the scores of only kids who exit an institution and then divide the result by the number of years the student attend, you won’t get a valid value add score.</p>

<p>This is another reason why you only use BSR’s numbers as a “general idea” of who a school serves (averages are meaningless without a distribution) and what it does for them. It is just like the Ivy League matriculation count - a meaningless number unless you know the recruited athletes and legacies.</p>

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<p>No. Because a 70% SSAT is > than a 70% SAT. Why? Because SSAT redistributes the likely top 5% of the nation.</p>

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<p>Periwinkle made a good point. One needs to be careful in comparing apples to apples.
A school’s SSAT numbers fluctuat from year to year quite a bit.</p>

<p>One incoming batch goes out in 4 years. For example, I think that Hotchkiss used to have SSAT numbers of 90+ percentiles (when they were known or maybe are still known as a nerdy school, :slight_smile: ) a couple of years ago, and those batches should be compared with the current SAT scores, 94%. … I am surprised by their current SSAT scores, however. 83 !!!
Gee, with a new Headmaster and a new DofA, are they trying to change the school or what!</p>

<p>Also, some schools have traditionally put a lot more stress on preparing their students for SAT than others. Cate and Webbs come to mind, although I should refrain from naming more names for east coast schools.</p>

<p>But, schools like Deerfield and Thatcher seldom do. Guess their students have better things to do… </p>

<p>It’s too simple-minded to simply only look at the resulting SAT scores of a school to judge its educational effectiveness. College matriculation will be a better indicator, although not a total indicator, either.</p>

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<p>The numbers posted by the OP make sense, with the exception of Vermont Academy.</p>

<p>Considering the national mean for 12th graders taking the SAT hovers around 1500 and the mean score of 8th grade SSAT takers hovers around 2000, Dana Hall’s numbers don’t surprise me at all. The SSAT, while very similar to the SAT, has a much more competitive pool of test takers than the SAT. As an illustration of this point, when my son took the lower level SSAT the first time, he misbubbled a math section and ended up with a percentile in the 30s!! However…his “estimated national percentile” in math was in the 90s. </p>

<p>On both tests, there is very little wiggle room to improve one’s score beyond the 85th. It can be a matter of dumb luck. In the case of all the 80+ SSAT schools, the change in the SAT percentiles are statistically meaningless. </p>

<p>All the OP’s numbers really tell me is that the SSAT does a pretty good job of predicting 12th grade SAT scores, especially when one considers the very different cohorts used to determine percentiles.</p>

<p>But what’s with Vermont Academy? I don’t know this school.</p>

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But I am surprised there SAT is below 50%, I really am.</p>

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<p>OK folks, now lets not further misuse statistics…</p>

<p>Yes, it is true that the SSAT and SAT tests both have different populations taking it. However, lets not make assumptions about the populations taking the test. For all the talk about the SSAT test takers being a “more competitive pool”, I am going to ask “Where is the evidence?” Yes, most boarding school applicants (or at least their parents) have the intention of sending their children to the best college they can, although never discussed on CC there are a significant number of private schools that are non-competitive that ask their applicants to take the SSAT mostly because it gives them an idea of where their incoming students are academically. </p>

<p>And remember 50% of the SSAT test takers score below the median. Many of these kids are applicants for the non-competitive schools with other agendas besides HYP admissions. While many of the lower scoring applicants do not attend boarding school, generally it is not because they are not competitive, but more likely because they do not find an appropriate academic/financial fit. </p>

<p>Getting back to my main concern here, lets compare the 2 pools (SSAT and SAT). As I said, most SSAT test takers are private school applicants (families) where college is a goal. Likewise the SAT test taking population is similiar. Your average shop major in HS is not going to spend those bucks to take the SAT to qualify for auto technician school. While I can’t say that the populations have a high degree of similarities, they are more alike than dissimilar. PrincipalV, I’m sorry, you seem to think the SSAT population is all about HADES admissions. HADES makes up a very small percentage of the SSAT population of test takers. It covers many thousands of students over many states and is accepted by not just the schools on BSR, but by private schools (non-boarding as well as boarding) across much of the country. The SSAT test taking population is not the creme de la creme just becuase the scores are normalized for both the population as a whole as well as the test taking population.</p>

<p>And I still stand by my initial post in this thread that the change in score percentile between SSAT and SAT is influenced greatly by factors other than the value add of the school, so this whole premise is extremely flawed.</p>

<p>To everyone out there. Please use the statistics to get a general idea of the student population so you can do an initial level check to quickly filter out inappropriate schools for your child (either much too high or much too low). After that, the best way to pick the school that will add the most value to YOUR child (not a statistical child) is to know what motivates your child to engage productively and find a school that offers that type of environment. For some, it will be the specialized programs. For others, it will be the level of structure in the school environment.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, those parents who shop for a school by name-brand and use the statistics to reinforce their own insecurity about their decision generally don’t know their child well enough or don’t understand that children don’t benefit from the name on the door. Yeah, even the bottom kids at HADES get a good education, but perhaps they would have developed better at a school where they weren’t in over their heads - where they felt secure in their place in the grading scale where they felt free to take more risks. What I am saying is the best statistical school is not necessarily the best fit for any child. So knock off the statistical analysis, will ya?</p>

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<p>What he said.</p>

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<p>

Using the same argument you used against me, chances are the student who wants to go to Podunk State University also takes the SSAT. </p>

<p>I agree with the bulk of what you are saying, but it is simply not true (or I don’t think it is) that the SAT population and the SSAT population are equal. About 50% of Americans take the SAT (I didn’t include dropouts in the denominator… I also did not include those who are not taking the SAT directly through CollegeBoard). That doesn’t even include the ACT; while many students take both, the ACT comprises of enough students who take it only. </p>

<p>In 2006 approximately 55,000 people took the SAT. Of all secondary school students (16 million) that comprises of .3% of students. </p>

<p>Now I could not clarify if Secondary school (vague definition) consisted of 6-12 or 9-12. Wikipedia was not very clear either. I went with the conservative one and picked 9-12, if this is not the case an even higher percent of students would be taking the SAT. </p>

<p>No, the SSAT population does not comprise purely of Exonians, but it certainly is among the top of America. </p>

<p>Think about it. People have 70% SSAT average with 99% national average, and when I spoke with someone in SSAT they said that was the “conservative estimate”.</p>

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<p>Makes good sense to me. But I have yet seen anyone on CC turned down an offer just because the school was “much too high” for their child - just an interesting observation.</p>

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<p>

Agreed. </p>

<p>

A deep flaw with this idea. If everyone at the “bottom” of the HADES et al did this there would be a new bottom. And you know where I’m going with this one. Besides, the “bottom” of HADEs comprise mostly of those with major hooks, those kids won’t do away with a HADEs education because they don’t want to be overwhelmed.</p>

<p>There’s a reason statistics are here. Use them. Use them well. Use them wisely. Don’t ignore them.</p>

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<p>While my son was at VA for three years, my wife and I rarely worried about what grades he was getting. We were more concerned with how his teachers were viewing his work ethic & efforts, and how he was growing as a citizen in the VA community during his time there.
Comparing HADES & VA via SAT & SSAT scores is definitely comparing apples with oranges (pardon the cliche). Where else could Joe Perry have gone to prep school? He turned out to be arguably more successful than most HADES graduates, if you equate success with $$. I really don’t think he was focusing too much on the upcoming SAT tests while there:)<br>
[Joe</a> Perry (musician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Perry_(musician)]Joe”>Joe Perry (musician) - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>I’m pretty sure the OP put VA in his mix of schools as a "red herring’, or control. VA has its own strengths that you can only find at VA, just as SPS & Salisbury has strengths unique to SPS & Salisbury and so on. Students thrive through different venues. I realize this thread is about the ratio of SAT & SSAT scores, and thereby judging what students have learned in four years based on the ratio of improvement or not. For the upcoming parent, I might just add that if you are deciding what school your child will be attending based upon this ratio, you might want to look at the culture of the school in addition to test ratios.</p>

<p>Btw - This son is currently at a four year college working hard, though he will probably take his time and complete his degree in 5 years.</p>

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<p>You forgot to add “Grasshopper” at the end.</p>

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<p>BTW, I said “perhaps” they would have developed better at a school where they weren’t in over their heads. That implies that some but not all. I wasn’t arguing the that the entire bottom of the class doesn’t belong. In fact some kids perform best when surrounded by kids achieving more who would underperform (slack) in an environment where they were average or above average. </p>

<p>My point here is that a child shouldn’t be placed in a school entirely because his/her test score (SSAT) indicates s/he falls within the range of the school’s population. Your example of the major hook kid (I’m taking this as developmental, athlete, etc.) who just gets by is often the poster child for my argument. While the HADES diploma may allow hiim/her to be passed on to another name brand college for more similar treatment (sit in the back of the class M-F, play to the crowds on the weedend), it probably won’t prepare him/her as well for the real world than a less-prestigious school that can better engage his/her intellect because s/he isn’t put on the pedastol for the non-academic stuff.</p>

<p>As the parent of one of those athletes who might sit at the back of the class at a HADES school but instead is “in the upper end of the mix” at a less-competitive school, I can tell you she is happy and productive and not at all thinking she is there only because she can stop a puck.</p>

<p>As to the statistics… There are lies, d a m n e d lies, and statistics, to recall one of Mark Twains better lines.</p>

<p>Most of the statistics put out there are not the whole picture (intentionally so)and most folks don’t understand that.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure where you got the figure that only 55,000 people took the SAT in 2006, but my quick check says that 1.465 million tests were administered in 2006. That would be impossible for 55,000 people to take that many tests when there are only 7 dates. Perhaps that is a typo.</p>

<p>I never said the SSAT and SAT populations were equal. I said they were more alike than dissimilar. Both are taken by parents who have higher education in mind. And like I said, even the kids at Vermont Academy and other less competitive schools take both tests. I’ll venture to say that the populations at these non-competitive or less competitive schools are very much like the typical college-bound population at public schools that take the SAT.</p>

<p>Of course, what you and I say is speculation in the absence of the complete picture, which is entirely why I entered this thread. The 2 statistics being compared here - SSAT and SAT scores. And these 2 measurements are being used as a proxy for educational achievement without supporting information about what percentage of the SSAT takers with what scores left the school before taking the SAT and how many years did these students spend at the school (I would argue a school that is doing a good job would get even better results with more 4-year students as opposed to 2 or 3 year students). So many things not accounted for in the 2 pieces of data. Worthless in a scientific sense.</p>

<p>I would hope that a HADES aspiring student would be able to see the simple flaws in this statistical analysis and dismiss it accordingly.</p>

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<p>Goaliedad gets a round of applause for that one.</p>

<p>I suspect that a big portion of the jump is actual test taking ability and preparation… You prepare to take the SAT by speaking their language so to say. I would suspect that kids with so-so SSAT scores that are accepted could have great SAT scores, because of something as simple as specialized preparation. Maybe they were accepted because they were amazing writers, but just couldn’t harness that for the SSAT questions?</p>