<p>Studies show that the most successful students are the ones whose parents stay involved and active.</p>
<p>I think there’s such thing as too deeply involved. We have five or more private schools in the area. All with many powerful parents. For our kid, we chose the school that was most independent of influential parents. Kids need to learn how they stack up against their peers without parental help.</p>
<p>Arguing against parent involvement by telling us you were strongly involved in your childs educational choices hardly proves the point.</p>
<p>There’s involved, and then there’s INVOLVED.</p>
<p>INVOLVED parents are the minority, they are just LOUDER, lol. Parents should not be discouraged from being involved in a positive way because of an overbearing minority.</p>
<p>This ia very interesting and important thread. Great question, coming from a teacher who is also a parent, seeing it from both sides.
Great points have been made!
We seem to be log-jammed a bit. I really hope we can continue this discussion.</p>
<p>Let’s open this up a bit:
- Are there any Educational Policy researchers or professionals out there who have dealt with this particular topic?
- How can we have an educational system that encourages/motivates/inspires teachers to GROW, to IMPROVE, to CHANGE as needed? There are approaches in all sorts of other fields. Do these apply?
- Is the issue of dealing with difficult and demanding parents keeping candidates away from teaching?
- Is the issue of dealing with student with unsupportive systems outside the classroom keeping people out of the teaching field?
- Should education or an individual school be viewed an “institution” (with a set of intrinsic values and methods that benefit society) or a “business” (trying to keep customers happy with products)?
- Since most families do not really have a “choice” about where to send their kids to school (possible by moving or paying for private schools), what say should they have about the educational experience at the school? Of just their own children? Of all the students?
- Are teachers in the public system overly protected by their unions from assessment? Do we want to avoid teaching to the test? If so, we need to adopt other ways to help teachers check their performance and improve. Is student performance measurable? An appropriate way to evaluate teachers?
- If a parent has a grievance or even a questions, what is the best approach for expressing this? What is a “real or valid” problem? Whom do she/he discuss it with first? How can the feedback from parents and students be safe, respected, and productive, yet not abused? Should students and families feel that once they are part of a school, that is it, no questions should be asked??
- If a teacher has a grievance about a student or his parents or situation, or has suggestions that go beyond the classroom, should this be voiced? If so, how?
- Do teachers discuss parents with one another and decide which are “good” or “annoying”? Does this affect the way they treat their students?
- What is school for? A place to transmit knowledge? To train members of society to be productive and lawful? A sanctuary from the outside world? A race among students to be the best? A method to transmit values and culture?
- Does anyone (teachers students, parents) have any examples related to above of things that have WORKED WELL? </p>
<p>Related food for thought and hopefully discussion!
CC parents are wonderful people who care about education. I am really curious about your opinions and ideas.</p>
<p>I hope OP does not mind my list of questions.
Thank you for starting this thread, OP!</p>
<p>
This is a very difficult question. Obviously, the teacher has power over the student, and that power can be wielded subtly (especially if the class is one where grades are somewhat subjective, like English, history, or a foreign language). Also, the student is transitory, while the teacher is permanent. The administration has to deal with the teacher for years, and the parents for only a few years (and just that one year, if the problem is just with one teacher).</p>
<p>While the “My taxes pay your salary” attitude is clearly misguided, it comes from the frustration over having too little say in the hiring and firing of the people who work directily with our kids for an entire academic year, while knowing that the school administration also has virtually no ability to fire bad teachers. We may not be happy with the policemen or firemen either, but these aren’t people we or our children deal with daily–some of us have never ever personally dealt with these other community professionals. </p>
<p>Also, sometimes we see preferential class assignment that shows that the school administration clearly knows who the “good” teachers are. Ever notice that all the PTO moms’ and BOE members’ kids coincidentally end up in certain classes? This causes frustrated, though politically unconnected, parents to want to exert some control over their less than ideal classroom assignment. After all, if the school knows these teachers aren’t as good as others, is the principal taking action to help them improve? Not usually. There have to be a lot of requests for removal from a class for the principal to start wondering what’s up and possibly do something.</p>
<p>If we don’t like the service at a restaurant or doctor’s office, we don’t have to return and we can complain to the manager. Unless we are wealthy and can afford private school, we are stuck. Complaining to the principal or teacher is usually ineffective and can produce backlash against the child. It’s kind of like a real estate transaction in that no one is really working for you. The seller is working for himself, and the agent is working for the seller and himself/his company. No one cares about the buyer. I think parents are in the same boat. The administration supports the teachers, the union defends the teachers, but who safeguards the interest of the parents? No one. (The BOE should, but their own kids are carefully shielded from most problems so they think parents with grievances are crazy or overly-critical. Also, they are often parents too who don’t want to cause problems for their own kids by taking on the school. In fact, some of them are in it to get advantages for their kids!)</p>
<p>It is a fantastic day for the parents when we get to leave the public school system behind. “this job would be great if it weren’t for the students and those pain in neck parents!” :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I wonder who teachers think they work for? </p>
<p>When it comes time to pass the referendums, they sure do want those parents out there on the front line campaigning for them. Lately, even in this area where referendums were never turned down in the past, most parents have teacher entitlement fatique. Nobody honestly sees the teachers as the “put upon” victims they continue to present themselves as. </p>
<p>Do teachers work for parents? No way. These days, parents also know this.</p>
<p>A better question might be: “How long will PARENTS continue to work so hard for a group who complains continually about them?” </p>
<ol>
<li> You can’t teach if the parents are too involved.</li>
<li> You can’t teach unless the parents are involved at home.</li>
</ol>
<p>Goldilocks. The pubic education in this country is a major disappointment, top to bottom.</p>
<p>Not wise to treat parents like they’re scum of the earth.</p>
<p>We had our daughter in public school before we decided to homeschool.</p>
<p>One thing that really bothered me was the break the child from the family mentality. Yuk! Easier to manage the children if you have their complete allegiance, I guess. But of course if anything were to go wrong, all of a sudden that would be the parents’ fault and responsibility, right?</p>
<p>When my kids were in public school, it was quite obvious that the kids whose parents were always volunteering, always selflessly contributing to the school, the classroom, the “office”, the sports teams, the band, etc. . . . were the kids who got the awards in the spring. Certain parents were locked into collusion with the faculty. They were frequently on the school board. They LOVED teachers. Just LOVED them. And, oddly, the teachers seemed to LOVE those parents’ kids right back.</p>
<p>…and with that, EPTR, the thread has now officially devolved into yet another teacher bashing thread.</p>
<p>^ Sorry if I devolved too much. There were good teachers along the way. The system, however, is seriously flawed.</p>
<p>Well, actually, it devolved into a parent bashing thread @ post # 16 with your very own post, Camathmom.</p>
<p>Oddly, I’ve never complained formally about a teacher to an admistrator, because, what would be the point anyway??? </p>
<p>But, I’ve been stunned by the amount of complaining I’ve heard on this board about parents from teachers, and it wasn’t until I began to read these complaining posts that I began to understand how much teachers really think their job would be much better if they only didn’t have to deal with the students and the parents. In the past couple of years, reading these posts by teachers, I’ve really wondered exactly what they think their job IS? And, I’ve decided we were right to get our kids out of public schools, though it wasn’t because of the teachers that we left.</p>
<p>Don’t worry, though, C-mom, I won’t post on any more of these parent bashing threads. Carry on.</p>
<p>Well Poetgrl, I post here primarily as a parent and secondarily as a teacher, although I do try to offer parents here some insight as to what teachers think/feel/see.</p>
<p>I don’t know of any teacher worth their salt that is not in their job “for the kids”. I DO however know of a lot of teachers and administrators that are very, very tired of parents who want everything for their particular child, dam**d as to how this affects the other students. At my school, we call them the “taker parents”.</p>
<p>My whole approach as a parent has been to make sure that my kids went to schools that were 100% supportive of the teachers. I personally wanted very happy well-taken care of teachers teaching my kids. As it turned out, I switched my kids into private schools (nonparochial independent) to make sure this happened. Taker parents are not listened to at my kids’ private school, and instead, it is suggested that these parents relocate their children to another school if they are not happy.</p>
<p>I think it is a political mistake to continue to pile on public school teachers. It doesn’t matter to me personally, as I am retiring in a few years, and I will bequeath all my family money to make sure my grandkids can afford private school tuition. But, not so good for us as a country to make public school teaching so difficult and undesirable that no top candidates will want to do it.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, I’m curious, as you did not like my previous post #16. What exactly did you find offensive to parents about this post?</p>
<p>I think you’ve got yourself mixed-up, cammathmom. The reason that there is so much satisfaction with the teachers at private independent schools (my kids have attended 4 different ones), is that the parents actually have a voice in determining which teachers are good enough to stay on. The head of school is hired by and reports to the parent trustees, and s/he in turn hires the (non-union) teachers, who serve at the pleasure of the head and the parent board of trustees. Bad teachers are out the door, so usually if a parent is complaining, it is an unreasonable complaint and probably means the school is not a good fit for that family.</p>
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<p>I know many parents/spouses/friends of teachers who make it very clear that benefits, job security, salary, and holidays are the main reason. Haven’t heard any of these people remark that their relative/friend is in their job “for the kids”.</p>
<p>camathmom,
- Where have you taught - at public or private schools?
- Have you as a parent ever had any experience with your child’s teachers where you felt that the 100% support was not warranted?</p>
<p>Bay, it is true that the Head of the school reports to an independent board at my kids’ schools, but it is composed only partially of parents. It is ABSOLUTELY not true at my kids’ HS (nor at their k-8) that parents hold the ultimate power position. It is also an incredibly selective school turning away 85% of the applicants. Perhaps that is why the teachers are so empowered at this school. It is also not cheap!</p>
<p>Also, Bay, your condescending tone is rude.
Is that how you talk to your children’s teachers?</p>
<p>this, from post #23 (c-mom) was most offensive of all:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’ve never once approached a teacher about my kids’ grades, and actually don’t have much interaction re: my kids classes, with teachers past around 4th grade. </p>
<p>However, I have been approached by teachers about my kids, both to single them out for praise and to question why one of them wasn’t working harder. In both cases, I asked the teacher to tell my kids what it was they had told me, since it wasn’t about me.</p>
<p>I have had much interaction with teachers in terms of fund raising as well as volunteering in the classroom. I also work with an organization and we go into low income areas and work with kids on their writing. I suppose it could be called teaching, but we do it because we believe these kids need some extra enrichment. I’m also involved with an organization which raises money to get technology to less fortunate kids with learning disabilities and have worked closely with several institutions in order to meet the needs of their LD kids.</p>
<p>But, never, except on this board, have I heard teachers complain about parents the way I do here. It’s highly offensive, imho.</p>