do you believe there is a GOD?

peter_parker_1 · April 6, 2010, 6:32pm

bigmike, I’m familiar with Einstein’s theory of relativity and the “travel the speed of light” space journey example. I’ve already mentioned them twice in my posts, pre-empting the obvious responses I would get, but apparently not pre-empting enough.

Simply, it is not ‘time travel’ at all. And “changing” time is only perceptual.

The dumbed-down gist of Einstein’s explanation, is that, while traveling at the speed of light, an atomic clock (the most accurate measurment of time - allegedly) actually slows down relative to a clock not traveling thusly, i.e. on earth for example (this is because an atomic clock uses particles of light bouncing to and fro sensors - and the distance that particle/wave has to travel is longer when traveling at the speed of light).

And actually, all distances anything has to move perceptually become longer, as a result, all movement of particles slows down to travel same perceptual distance.

<h2>So basically, assuming this “slows you down” by a factor of 2 (let’s say) you can “time travel” (not really) by traveling at the speed of light (say around earth, whatever) for ten years – although you will only have perceptually experienced and aged 5 years. So in 5 “perceptual” years – it will be 10 years later. But REALLY, you’ve still been doing stuff and are actually 10 years older. True time can never be altered (although perhaps it cannot be accurately measured).</h2>

And gotakun - yes, if you want to claim someone is using a logical fallacy, that actually has merit and is understandable. But if you’re saying someone’s argument is wrong because it uses poor logic - you are basically saying the argument is poor becase it is argued poorly - in essence you’re saying nothing at all. And my ideas are my own — sorry there’s some intelligent thought around here.

Icarus · April 6, 2010, 8:15pm

When I say something like that, what I mean is that the argument is not logically defensible, does not meet philosophical/logical rigor, etc.

No, the measurements of time are the man-made labels. But nice try.

So which is it?

gotakun · April 6, 2010, 8:25pm

Sorry, it sounds like nonsense to me. Having poor/false logic is synonymous with using logical fallacies. Arguing poorly only means the argument was unconvincing. Both elements are in play in a debate, and unfortunately, the most convincing argument is not always the most logically sound.

I don’t really know why I’m even addressing you. I think the atheists got bored and started attacking each other >_>;

xMastemah · April 6, 2010, 11:50pm

I don’t think any group should be attacking anyone, just defending themselves if necessary. I sincerely wish the lack-of-religion group I associate myself with didn’t parade themselves around as more logical and intelligent than anyone else. It’s a very shameful act and one that has given us a very bad name over the last few years. Going so far as to start spouting out things that just end up turning into arguments over logic and not even about the subject at hand.

Anyway, I’m Atheist, at least, I’m pretty sure and I am right now. Maybe it will change, maybe it won’t. Either way, it is what it is. I don’t see why people need to continue to try to win an un-winnable argument, si?

GoOakland · April 7, 2010, 12:47am

I’m not even going to bother debating with the various atheists here. Do I believe there is a god? Yes I do. Why? Many reasons:

<ol>
<li>As much as these atheists talk about logic I sure don’t think its logical that we came from fish and the big bang miraculously “happened” to form us. </li>
<li>If this evolution crap just “happened” then what’s the purpose in life? Am I here because some freak event happened? I sure hope not! If so, then what stops me from doing anything I want in this life? I could rob banks, murder, do whatever. The atheists may claim that the civil law should deter such actions but If I’m just gonna end up back in the dirt then so what. I’m a lost cause anyway. How I spend my life is irrelevant if I’m sleeping in the dirt in the end anyway. And thats a pretty depressing thought. Some may say that religion, and thus my belief in god, merely solves my emotional emptiness but its deeper than that. Why are we here is a core question.</li>
<li>I believe there is a spiritual side to a being. Why have any morals at all if there was not a spiritual side that said it wasn’t logical? Obviously I don’t mean logical in the thinking sense but from the spiritual perspective. Murdering someone does not make any logical sense to your spiritual side so you don’t do it (along with the logical reasoning of the law.)</li>
</ol>

And a few tidbids I got comments on:

<ol>
<li>Why do we need to prove god? If god could be logically proved by science and such by our minds then he would cease to be considered “god”. And plus the OP never asked to prove god. They simply asked do you believe in one and why/why not. You don’t need to prove your right to everybody with logical facts and reasoning. Just support your statement and move on.</li>
<li> How can the bible be 100% false? If you believe that then you are basically calling billions of people liars. I mean its even in textbooks. Are you saying textbooks are wrong in stating that the people around that time did not write the bible as a history about their day? I can see you not believing certain aspects/ideas but not ALL of it.
3.The argument that god is not real because we kill his creatures and creations is ■■■■■■■■. According to the bible we are created in his image. That implies that he made everything for us to use. So if we are hungry and we need food then guess what? killing that cow is not so bad.</li>
<li> Saying religion is false because everyone who is religious tries to implement their religious agendas on everybody else is also ■■■■■■■■. Everyone here knows church and state are SEPERATE and anybody that combines it would be perverting both govt and religion and thus cannot be considered a true representation of religion and its goodness. </li>
</ol>

Which brings me to another point. The only way I can see not believing in religion makes any sense is the argument that religion was established to help implement the governments agenda. I could see that. I don’t believe it but I could see that argument. I’m not closed to other ideas and I have chosen my side of the coin. I believe there is a god for my given reasons. Are my reasons factual and provable? no, but that is what I feel.

Atheists have fun tearing up my beliefs…

amarkov · April 7, 2010, 12:55am

That’s… so far from what logic means. I don’t know what I can possibly do to refute that better than letting it stand. Next question.

Your sense of morality is so tiny that you require the possibility of punishment from God to prevent you from doing bad things? You need to go back over the Bible, because I’m pretty sure the point of Christianity is not “act good or God’s gon getcha”.

No, I don’t murder someone because it’s clearly and obviously wrong. Again, it’s kinda scary that the only thing standing between you and a life of immorality is your belief in Jeeeeesus.

gotakun · April 7, 2010, 1:04am

/sigh…
@xMastemah
I think it’s winnable. All anyone has to do is prove how religion is a detriment to the lives of most people in this country. I can’t wait to construct that argument :).

@GoOakland
No one is going to force you to believe any theories. It isn’t your religion vs a Big Bang theory. Your religion is nothing and theories are speculative. I don’t necessarily believe in any given theory just because it’s supposedly based on scientific evidence.

I’m sorry that you think the only restraint in this world that keeps you from murdering or robbing banks is some fake religion. You must feel like a savage beast on the inside. Do you know how many convicted murderers or thieves are religious? I’ll give you a hint: there are more religious convicts than atheist ones.

I honestly could not understand your #3. It was jibberish. If you want to learn about morals, take some classes :).

I’m going to ignore the rest of whatever you said and laugh at this quote:

Hahahaha… Pretending to believe the parts Christians do, I can’t understand how they ever manage to justify not believing ALL of it and following everything by the letter. The crap reasons they spout were obviously some neo-Christian leader’s attempt to keep the religion alive in a modern society. That people accept the poor excuses as logical and rational is a sad indicator of the population’s state-of-mind.

xMastemah · April 7, 2010, 1:07am

It’s been constructed many, many times, and been proven to deter no one, really. That kind of logic does not prevail when you’re dealing with such a large group of people who need nothing but sheer number in order to back them up. Actually, it’s the separation of what we consider logic and what they do that causes the argument to keep continuing. You can’t make someone consider something logical and something else not because it is deep-rooted in the way you think.

Hopefully it’s quite obvious to most that religion is both a source of great danger for some but at the same time, a source of a great happiness for much, much more. What’s the point of trying to take that away from people? What gain is there in it? I’ve only been an Atheist for 4 years, but it was something that I realized in no time at all.

Everything is theory. Aside from theory, there are laws, and even laws have exceptions. No one has anything solid, and only upon death will you find the true answer. You can say your “evidence” is MORE solid than theirs, but in the end, there is loopholes in everything, questions that can’t be answered, and most likely never will be.

peter_parker_1 · April 7, 2010, 1:26am

There is no measurent of time - time is just a measurement. Time has no bearing on anything, and can never be altered - it cannot be percieved - it simply does not exist. It’s a complete abstraction.

The seasons and day/night cycle might confuse you. Imagine the sun was fixed in the sky at its zenith - and the weather never changed - people never aged - and clocks didn’t work. What is time? It is just speed and movement.

Disregard the term true time - I meant objective time (anything constant - ie., an atomic clock in an immovable vaccuum). As in, differentiating from Einstein’s atomic clock measurement which can be altered.

Space-time simply does not exist — because it assumes there are multiple time periods existing on top of each other that can be folded together. Impossible - there is only one time - now.

Imagine if “time” DID freeze. What would it look like? Would there be something timing the duration of the freeze? Isn’t that time? Imagine if people started moving around while time was frozen - would there be any difference? Time just a measurement - useful for showing up to things in conjunction with other people. Yet there are so many crackpot scientific theories about it…

And I still think God doesn’t exist.

Why are we here then? There is no reason. None at all. Why is anything the way it is? Why is matter composed of atoms? Why do human beings drink water?

When it comes right down to it, EVERYTHING in the universe is arbitrary. EVERYTHING.

Because if something is governed by a rule or idea, well, why that rule? Why that idea? Oh because that is governed by this rule. Well why that rule?

When it comes down to why things are, the first causes will always be arbitrary, because they require some framework to make sense, but that framework requires a framework, and so on, ad nauseum.

So can we murder and cheat and steal? Well of course we can. Of course, there are likely to be consequences. But why care about those? Well, philosophically, no reason.

It’s basically our biology. We are programmed to obey social orders and build our reputations and “survive” and feel remorse for others.

Of course, I wouldn’t say that out loud at parties. People don’t like threats to the social order. Biology.

xMastemah · April 7, 2010, 1:30am

^ “When it comes right down to it, EVERYTHING in the universe is arbitrary. EVERYTHING.”

The truth is there, but it is indeed a scary thought. Perhaps it is not healthy for one’s view of life to go around with this clouding their thoughts. I am reminded of death nearly everyday as I lay in bed trying to sleep, and what a terrible thing is. Sometimes I feel like crying myself to sleep.

Maybe this is why religion is so appealing. Life without a purpose is scary, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

Thanks for that (really).

Icarus · April 7, 2010, 1:55am

Peter_Parker, I think you are taking an incorrect definition of the term “time” to mean “the current state of being/existence”. You are correct that time is an abstract concept. However, it most certainly can be perceived. Even in your scenario of people not aging, sun high in the sky, etc., you can perceive the passage of time. For example, if i threw a ball, I would know that my arm was in one place at one moment and in another in the next moment, and having that knowledge and knowledge of millions of other moments and the things that change throughout those knowledge points, could perceive the passage of time. But saying “time is a measurement” is just wrong - we measure time by our own arbitrary units of seconds/hours/days/months/years/etc.

And GoOakland, I think you need to expand your viewpoint beyond seing religion and god as the source of meaning. The purpose of life question is a deeper one than we can discuss in this thread. And if you want to think that the purpose of your life is to do what you think god says to do as your perceive it, then thats great. But don’t think that yours is the only option, or that the rest of us have no purpose in life, because that is just wrong.

Morals and ethics are not based on god/religion or any spiritual concept you might have. Parse out this question - “Is something right because god commands it or does god command it because it is right?” - you might be surprised at the conclusion.

Are you saying billions of people can’t be wrong about something? A long time ago, the whole world was convinced that the earth was flat. You bet I’m willing to say that they were wrong. (calling them “liars” is a bit strong because they did actually believe in what they were saying, much like most religious people today - so I wouldn’t call someone who says “There is a god” a liar so much as I would say that they are wrong)

I’ve never heard that one, but ok.

Never heard anyone make that claim either - I’ve heard people say religion and its followers are annoying and stupid for doing that, but certainly not that it is false because of that. That would be a non sequitur.

We don’t - in fact, I would argue that you can’t. (nor can you absolutely “prove” the non-existence of god)

Thats unfortunate - again, expand your views.

Icarus · April 7, 2010, 1:57am

Peter_Parker’s statement that everything is arbitrary is way too extreme and is patently false. And life without religion is not a life without purpose or meaning.

Ray192 · April 7, 2010, 2:00am

I’m rather flabbergasted by people who actually want to believe that the biblical God exists. It’s like they want to see a divine version of Kim-Jong Il.

xMastemah · April 7, 2010, 2:07am

I wasn’t suggesting religion is the only thing that can give life a purpose. However, it is quite obviously the most popular and many people have many reasons for living, including religion. In the context of this thread, it was the one worth nothing.

I myself do not look to religion for a reason or a purpose or a meaning. I’d rather decide my own fate, make my own decisions, and deliver my own message and so on. But I am completely empathetic to those who choose that path and have frequently looked to the faithful for hope.

I don’t see how his statement about everything being arbitrary is false. It is extreme (as I tried to come out with in a way but not strong enough) but other than that?

EDIT: A college forum is keeping me from my studying. Somewhat ironic. Then again…“Ewwww, Chemistry!” should be my catch phrase. (:

LogicWarrior · April 7, 2010, 2:24am

pretty sure it would have to be at the center of the universe, otherwise it has relative motion and therefore not be objective

freshman philosophy classes program people to say stuff like this i imagine

gotakun · April 7, 2010, 2:46am

Huh? Nothing but laws and theories? What about observations? I think defining laws is simply a shortcut way to disprove arguments that are obviously false and to assist in making predictions. In the absence of a law or theory, a hypothesis can still be tested.

I think everyone is making things way more complicated than they should be. There should be NO reason to have to cite any physical laws or theories, no reason to argue metaphysical concepts of time, morality, or purpose. Reality is what you see. You read a fairy tale and know it isn’t true because you can see that it isn’t. You read the bible and know it isn’t true because you SEE that it isn’t. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out, so why does debate always head in that direction? Historical records prove that the Christian biblical version is not true. End of story.

Honestly, we are gaining no ground because we’re arguing over trivial topics. I think debate should be focused on important topics, such as how religion affects the world negatively and the positive potential in a world without religion, and have the working assumption be that religious beliefs are delusional, that religious stories are fictional.

If religion wants to fight for its right to exist, it needs to prove that the world is not BETTER off without it. People ARE motivated to do good things by religion, but is there potential for them to be MORE motivated without it? Is there potential for MORE people to be motivated without it? Is there potential for a happier, less judgmental world without it? What about a safer one, where people aren’t quite so unpredictable, where laws exist for real, worldly, logical reasons? Think about a world where there are REAL role models that children look up to, who teach the same message as the fictional Jesus. Kids are much more likely to idolize older siblings or mentors who actually exist than a fictional character in a book they could care less about. I see this weekly, kids from strictly religious families who idolize their older brothers in gangs.

LogicWarrior · April 7, 2010, 2:56am

“the world would be a better place if people believed what i believe”

gotakun · April 7, 2010, 3:01am

LogicWarrior, atheism is not a belief system. It is the absence of a belief.

LogicWarrior · April 7, 2010, 3:05am

lack of a belief then. it doesn’t change my point. you think the world would be a better place if people thought as you did.

gotakun · April 7, 2010, 3:15am

I guess I don’t understand your purpose. Can you extrapolate? Anyway, I’m going to assume you were just agreeing with me and say yes, exactly. The only way to win out over religion is to convince them that the belief in religious delusions is a detriment to society and/or themselves.

Edit: By the way, to quote someone with a name, do [ quote=NAME ] Message <a href=“without%20the%20spaces”> /quote </a>. It’s so hard to follow this thread at times because I don’t know who is being quoted…

do you believe there is a GOD?

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