<p>why does the world need to be on your side?
why would you delude yourself or lie to me (not sure which one) into thinking that my satire was in agreement with you?
finally, in your atheist world, do people not have spiritual needs or are they fulfilled through some other method?</p>
<p>i can’t really extrapolate my previous statement since i was simply making fun of you, but answers to these questions would be appreciated :)</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There is no MY side. It’s up to everyone to collaborate and decide how the world should be or what accommodations should be made for needs that may or may not actually exist.</p></li>
<li><p>You made false assumptions, so I truly didn’t understand what you thought was satire. I didn’t imply any belief system or school of thought, only the absence of the belief in a religion.</p></li>
<li><p>See #1</p></li>
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<p>If a minor semantic detail is that detrimental to your understanding, you are clearly not the best spokesperson for atheism. Good night.</p>
<p>I just won’t let someone try to reduce my valid statement to one of religious equivalence. It is not a matter of social dominance “my belief vs yours.” I’ve already explained this. To clarify, there was no semantic misunderstanding; I was just correcting you. Goodnight :).</p>
<p>^See, even spammers believe in God [noparse];)[/noparse]</p>
<p>Come inform me whenever you’ve convinced the masses to abandon their religion because you said they should. Nobody has address MY statement. If religion is the source of so many things besides war and violence (to which it is a minor result in modern times, aside from some extremists), so many GOOD things, why would you want to take it away from them?</p>
<p>“Oh you can’t look to such and such for hope and purpose anymore, because we don’t think it’s healthy for the human population as a whole.” Rubbish. Even as an Atheist, I hope that never happens.</p>
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<p>Nah, but I can inform you that someone has convinced the masses to follow the Bible (or other religious text) and believe in God. If they can do it, why can’t we undo it?</p>
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<p>Well, I fundamentally disagree that religion is the source of many good things. Religion is brainwashing, which I feel is, by default, harmful. It also causes people to oppose technological advances for no reason other than “God said it’s bad.” I strongly approve of critical thinking and really hate “bandwagon” mentality. Religion has and will continue to start wars. Religion has people turning against tolerance (the US Constitution) for the name of a fundamentally Christian state. Religion has wiped out entire cultures and “converted” whole peoples. I don’t think that’s a “good” thing.</p>
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<p>You can fundamentally disagree all you want. Many people who are without faith choose (read: choose) to seek out Christianity, and incoincidentally other religions, as a source of hope and happiness when things don’t go right in their lives. I live in the South, I see this situation everywhere. Those people aren’t “brainwashed” (and I do agree - those do exist) at all. </p>
<p>You’re blanketing one religion’s concepts/ideals (and OLD FASHIONED ideals at that. Who exactly opposes technological advances anyway?) to all of them. Last time I checked, China, South Korea, and Japan are still influenced by religion in great numbers, yet continue to surpass the U.S. in technological advances year after year. </p>
<p>You’re demeaning people who have devoted their lives to education and research and furthering our knowledge of the world today, solely on the fact that they believe in a God, not only because they CHOOSE to, but because they’re “bandwagoners”? Really…huh, makes sense, in a weird, twisted sort of way. </p>
<p>Humankind always has and will start wars and wipe people out with or without religion. You really think otherwise? Entertain me. Just like everything else, religion is evolving with the times, perhaps that’s something you missed?</p>
<p>“No, I don’t murder someone because it’s clearly and obviously wrong. Again, it’s kinda scary that the only thing standing between you and a life of immorality is your belief in Jeeeeesus.”</p>
<p>That is not what he is saying. What he said was this:</p>
<p>“I believe there is a spiritual side to a being. Why have any morals at all if there was not a spiritual side that said it wasn’t logical? Obviously I don’t mean logical in the thinking sense but from the spiritual perspective. Murdering someone does not make any logical sense to your spiritual side so you don’t do it”</p>
<p>No mention of Jesus, just that there is a spiritual side of the person that informs one’s decisions. You say that you don’t murder someone “because it’s clearly and obviously wrong”, but WHY is it clearly and obviously wrong? Those coming from a theistic, Christian standpoint would point to an innate God-given morality that gives humans a sense of right and wrong. Perhaps that is why it is “clearly and obviously wrong”.</p>
<p>“I’ll give you a hint: there are more religious convicts than atheist ones.”</p>
<p>Only because there are more religious people as a whole. Basic proportions.</p>
<p>“Morals and ethics are not based on god/religion or any spiritual concept you might have.”</p>
<p>But that’s the thing. I would say that God has given us morals and ethics and thus the morals and God are inextricably linked.</p>
<p>“Historical records prove that the Christian biblical version is not true. End of story.”</p>
<p>[Did</a> Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?](<a href=“http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html]Did”>Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? | GotQuestions.org)</p>
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<p>When people talk about religion in general, it’s usually about the Abrahamic ones (Christianism, Islamism, and Judaism). East Asian practices are extremely different and should not be considered the same as the Western ones in debates such as this one.</p>
<p>First of all, they are non-theistic religions, meaning there’s no belief in a supreme creator (god). Second, there’s no ‘Obey the commandments or burn in hell’ kind of attitude, there are mainly sets of belief and general guides toward being a happier person (to put it simple). Furthermore, East Asian religions do not impose exclusivity to their members, Japanese like to combine practices from Buddhism with Shintoism, for example.</p>
<p>Also, let’s make clear that more than half the population in China and South Korea is atheist. Why? I like to attribute it to the rich culture and historically spiritual traditions in East Asian countries.</p>
<p>I know that Christianity does make some people happier and am all for it, but I usually find this more common with people that practice it with a grain of salt, not really sticking literally to the Bible like some extremists. I find it hard to believe religion nowadays could cause wars since it is extremely weak in modern times. Religion caused wars back when it was deeply involved in politics, not so much now.</p>
<p>I do have a fervent desire to dismantle the Vatican though; popes live in humongous palaces surrounded by valuable historic pieces while in places like Africa people are starving to death. What a joke.</p>
<p>Okay, I’m done discussing time. It’s been beaten to death. It doesn’t exist because there is no observable or empirical evidence of it whatsoever. Show me data. There. Beat that.</p>
<p>The label of time precedes the entity, not vice versa.</p>
<p>And ouch, saying I ripped off ideas from freshman philosophy class? lol… I guess the ideas are bad because its a freshman class, presumably?</p>
<p>Nah, the concept is more ripped off from evolutionary psychology. We are just a series of efficient impulses and desires for lasting and screwing and lasting longer.</p>
<p>And finally, I find the existentialist/ atheist optimism that we can “find our own purpose” or some feel-good buzzwords, utterly laughable.</p>
<p>We can create our purpose the same way a stone create its purpose. We can’t. It doesn’t matter if the stone decides its purpose it to be a doctor and save other stones. It was created without purpose; it has no purpose. You might as well struggle to find the true meaning and purpose of your last thoughtless fart as well.</p>
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<p>But, there is no reason to bash religion or those who are religious. I don’t understand this utterly ridiculous, brazenly disrespectful, and just plain annoying atheist mission to convert the world to atheism and rid the world of “God.” It’s juvenile.</p>
<p>Religion doesn’t necesitate war or harming others. Some people do - but religion can exist independently of that, and you are attacking the wrong causes.</p>
<p>Religion is great — it has a real peaceful, calming, and uplifting effect on people. It doesn’t matter if the beliefs are true or not. It’s great - it’s like weed.</p>
<p>I wish I could believe in the stuff every now and again - but you can’t choose what you believe. And really, part of me doesn’t want to go through life with my hands over my ears, my eyes closed, and me singing a song to myself loudly to distract me from stuff I don’t want to know or see about life. I want to know things as they are - find out the true answers. Happiness be damned.</p>
<p>So, I also like having athetist/ philosophical conversations every once in a while - I’m not trying to convert people, just discuss things. Ah well.</p>
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<p>This. Pretty much all of it, I couldn’t have said it better myself (though I’ve tried).</p>
<p>I would like to clarify something before I continue. I have argued in this thread only for the sake of truth and having a logical, stimulating debate. I feel such debate is healthy as it strengthens my own beliefs and helps me to find answers to claims against my beliefs. If I can successfully rebuke an argument against my ideology, that is another argument I can rebuke in the future. If I fail, I must examine my premise and investigate if this is valid. </p>
<p>I am not arguing to convert any of you. I try to avoid making my arguments too personal and I always try to be respectful and polite. I ask the rest of you to maintain this air so that we may continue to have a rewarding discussion.</p>
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<p>Existentialism espouses that to live is to have meaning. You have meaning because you are alive. Yes, in the ‘grand’ scheme of things, your life may have no meaning. But the grand scheme isn’t of much importance to you now, is it?</p>
<p>That is, to me, the greatest offense religion commits: succeeding in getting people to look past the meaning in this life for meaning in an afterlife that may or may not exist.</p>
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<p>Remarkably few people are forced to join cults. They choose that path, too. Does that mean they are not brainwashed? Does that mean what they are doing is right?</p>
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<p>You’re right. I’m referring to the Abrahamic - and perhaps a few others - religions. Eastern religions are just fundamentally different, as described by another poster. As for who opposes technological advances, that’s easy? What about the religious groups that opposed stem cell research or cloning? Euthanasia? By no means are the only oppositions to these advancements religious, but those are huge - or at least the most noisy - parts of the opposition. And that’s not to mention social advancements, such as equal rights, abortion, etc.</p>
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<p>Sure - I also demean people who CHOOSE to join cults, who CHOOSE to commit crime, etc. It’s not the God concept that bothers me, it’s the religion concept. I’m not anti-faith. I am anti-religion.</p>
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<p>Of course I don’t think that all war would end be there no more religion. I should hope no one is that naive. But there are plenty of problems that could be solved without religion, like separation of church and state, etc. I don’t think religion is evolving. If religion is evolving, why do we have the same texts and the same religious practices? </p>
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<p>There weren’t Jews until a few hundred BCE, and Jesus wasn’t born until after C.E. Did people have no morals or ethics before then?</p>
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<p>I think that it should be our goal to get people thinking critically and independently without imaginary crutches. I also think we should toss aside religious practices that are harmful. You can disagree with me, but I think that’s a pretty important “mission.”</p>
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<p>Again, I fundamentally disagree. I don’t think any good comes of believing in a lie. I think that says something sad about the human condition.</p>
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<p>This is what I wish not only for you, but for everyone. In my opinion, the goal cannot be accomplished with religious systems in place.</p>
<p>ikillers got my point. My standard of morals comes from my version of god and the spirtuality that exists because of him. So if you want to call me an animal just waitin to let loose then yeah you’re right. Thats the beauty of god. We have to overcome our natural tendencies to do evil to return with him. But Obviously yall don’t understand that and nor do I expect you too.</p>
<p>Here’s a bone though. You criticize me for not having some sort of inner strength to overcome murder and “wrong actions” but having to fear god instead to overcome. Well here’s my question. If god establishes a set of morals and helps me get through them then where do you learn what is good and wrong? Eh, thats confusing sort of… try this. God establishes a set standard of actions for me and I fear his punishment in breaking them. You on the other hand do not believe in god so he cannot be the one who set your standards of good/evil. Where do you learn of whats good and evil? According to you it cant come from god. You can’t derive your sense of morals from the law either because lets face it… our laws were thought of from god fearing men, who you think were led astray. So you some how recieved a set of morals out of thin air. Where do these morals come from? Why is breaking these morals so bad for you?</p>
<p>If I understand where your set of morals come from then maybe I can better debate with you because I simply don’t understand.</p>
<p>O and how do I quote?</p>
<p>People can derive moral systems from: intuitions, rationality, utilitarian theories, genetically hardwiring, being taught by their parents, common customs of their community, etc.</p>
<p>And no, you don’t need to read Philosophy to have philosophical bases to your moral or ethical systems- many systems (though not all) claim to be describing the way morals are.</p>
<p>@xMastemah
I don’t even know how to respond to your question other than to quote exactly what I said…
Do you see what i’m getting at here? Just because things are okay like they are, doesn’t mean there isn’t potential for them to improve without religion being a detriment.
</p>
<p>Moving on…</p>
<p>@ikillers
The actual statistic is that, percentage-wise, there are more religious people in prison than not. There is a disproportional amount of religious people in prison. There is a higher chance that someone in prison is religious than any other normal, law-abiding citizen. Do I need to rephrase it for a third time? 
The statistic isn’t too meaningful, but it’s shocking to hear, right?</p>
<p>Also, if the credibility of historical evidence of Jesus’ existence wasn’t disputed, there would be no questioning his existence. I have my last name listed as “Anointed One” on a social networking site. Does that mean historians who cite my name are referring to THE Christian biblical Jesus? About the disciples… People won’t die for a lie, but they would die for their pride. No one can (probably) ever know why they chose to do what they did. It’s just as possible they had no choice, that they were forced by another party for who-knows-what reason. The article you linked is not a very credible source, just by the very fact that a very significant amount of it is in reference to JOSEPHUS, the fraudulent historian. Looking back at it, that’s the only reference that the disciples even existed.</p>
<p>@GoOakland
What is important to note is that your beliefs are on unstable foundation: faith. The danger of relying on your faith to control you is that if you ever lose your faith, you don’t know how to handle yourself. You become unpredictable. It’s dangerous.</p>
<p>Also, to learn how to quote:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064550675-post220.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064550675-post220.html</a></p>