do you believe there is a GOD?

College Life
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<p>Did you think about, “Is something right because god commands it or does god command it because it is right?” It is an interesting experiment.</p>

<p>My sense of good and evil is derived from several sources. You would be surprised that a moral compass is innate in humans, stronger in some than others perhaps, but everyone who has one, has one naturally. Whenever I do something that would harm another person, it goes against my instincts and what I naturally feel is right. We are all human, and most humans have an attribute known as empathy. </p>

<p>I could go deep into the physiology of this neurological phenomenon, but put short, there are chemicals that are released in the brain in response to seeing another human, or any animal, in a particular state. These chemicals induce a similar state in ourselves. Humans are one of the very few organisms with the capacity to feel empathy. Because we are able to be aware of our being aware, we are able to use our own past experiences to infer the experiences and emotions of others (there is also an interesting theory for the origin of the belief of God that branches off of this capacity). There is essentially an instinctual reflex (for most people) against causing harm to another human being because of this empathy. </p>

<p>Morality in this sense becomes a sort of tangible thing. When I see another person in distress, through my empathetic response, I also feel distress. This is the root of “smiles are contagious.” Taking this a step further, with my cognitive abilities, I can imagine a person being robbed and feel empathy with their situation. This empathetic feeling is not a positive feeling, so I have a natural aversion to this feeling and an aversion to causing this feeling in others. This is the root of my not wanting to rob another person. </p>

<p>I’m sure you will now ask, what is this origin of this empathetic response? One probable evolutionary explanation for this empathy is because it provides a communal advantage, and it is obvious that it is disadvantageous to the species to cause harm to one another. I hope this is sufficient.</p>

<p>All of this is natural, let alone contemplating ethics and philosophy to temper one’s moral compass in matters where empathetic feelings may or may not be accurate or present (for instance, business and environmental ethics). </p>

<p>A person born without a moral compass will not find it in God, hence why there are just as many murderers who are religious as those who are not, and that’s not considering the crusades, burning at the stake, the brothels (of young male children) held by priests in the mid 1600’s, etc.</p>

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<p>While I am anti-organized religion and I do not believe in a God, it is ignorant to say that Religion is the “cause of all wars”, or even most wars, for that matter.</p>

<p>Coincidence that the top mass murderers in human history were mostly ANTI-RELIGIOUS?</p>

<p>1) Mao (Communist)
2) Stalin (Communist)
3) Hitler (Fascist)
4) Hideki Tojo (While Japan was spiritual, it was not religious, the war had nothing to do with religion)
5) Pol Pot (Communist)
6) Kim Il Sung (Communist)
7) Mengistu (Communist)
8) Breshnev (Communist)
9) Jean Kambanda (Ethnic Cleansing)
10) Suharto (Communist)
11) Saddam Hussein (Not religious, but ruled a religious country that went to war over territory, not religion)
12) Idi Amin (Just crazy)
13) Mussolini (Fascist)
14) Genghis Khan (War for territory, loot, and glory)
15) Harry S. Truman (Firebombing and Nuclear bombing adds up)
16) Milosevic (The first one on this list who killed outright for religious reasons)</p>

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<p>Wasn’t Hitler a fascist Christian? Maybe not, but I’m pretty sure I’ve read that somewhere. I don’t know enough to comment on the rest of the list.</p>

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IMO, and from what I believe I was taught, morals are learned. Through conditioning, as children grow, they are indoctrinated by their culture. Morality is one aspect of that culture. I think some sense of morality can be attributed by simple survival mechanisms, where we know there are negative consequences to actions, so we develop a natural aversion to them. In that case, even when an urge arises, our aversion keeps us in check. We don’t threaten the lives of strangers who anger us because we know there are negative consequences. “God” didn’t establish your set of morals, your environment did, you did. There is no god, and your morality is not exactly the same as anyone else’s; that is just an illusion. Every Christian assumes the others think like they do, because they all are under the false impression their source of morality is the same god.</p>

<p>I love how closely psychology and religion are related :).</p>

<p>GoOakland inadvertently brings up an important point… I wonder if a child who grows up always believing he/she is being watched will never develop a sense of moral responsibility that normal adults should have. Where is there any room for the development of restraint in the absence of consequence? Even when no cops are around, I still stop at stop signs. If I traveled to another country and in passing met a sexually attractive stranger, I wouldn’t rape him/her. In a state of anarchy, as an anonymous individual, I still wouldn’t turn into a murderer. Based on GoOakland’s comments, I’m suspicious that he might not be capable of the same restraint as I in the absence of his god. It’s like when kids are finally free from the constant watch of parents. What do they do? Everything their parents didn’t allow them to.</p>

<p>@Manhattan75
The people you listed did not single-handedly murder masses. They had help. The real question is whether their subordinates were religious, to which I would say “probably.” EDIT: Not only THAT, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they used religion as a TOOL to accomplish what they did.</p>

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<p>lol funny thread</p>

<p>argue away peeps, and lets see if we get anywhere!!!</p>

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<p>Considering he sent Christians to concentration camps, no.</p>

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<p>Derr… Just like anything else, it can be used to manipulate people… As does money, power, land, family, reputation, resources, etc… Like any other human construct, it can be abused and used to manipulate. It is not often the CAUSE of conflict, as most religious people are peaceful as per the practice of their religion.</p>

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<p>Here’s a list I’m working on for the detriments of religion on society:</p>

<p>[ul][<em>]Homosexual prejudice and interpersonal relationships (homophobia creates distance between people, limits on friendships, subsequent restriction of happiness)
[</em>]Lack of natural moral restraint/moral development
[<em>]Hallucinogenic nature of religion = unpredictability of people in positions of power
[</em>]Too easily controlled (blindly following anyone who claims to be of their religion or in line with their religious beliefs)
[<em>]Focusing on the non-existent afterlife detracts from the here-and-now
[</em>]Unnecessary guilt from participating in activities arbitrarily deemed “sinful” (including social bullying of others to shun them for sinning)
[<em>]Perpetuation/neglect of problems because prayer is believed to be a solution
[</em>]False sense of security around people who appear to be religious (including trusting adults with children)[/ul]
The opposite of this list is not what good religion has done/can do for society, but the benefits of religion that cannot also be obtained in its absence.</p>

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<p>^you forgot greed, misogyny, murder, & rape. other than that, good list.</p>

<p>“Coincidence that the top mass murderers in human history were mostly ANTI-RELIGIOUS?”</p>

<p>what’s your point? thousands of other murderers throughout history have been very PRO-RELIGION. millions, even ;)</p>

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<p>Aight Crazyday that was pretty nice. Very complete explanation and a solid argument, exactly what I was lookin for. I see/agree with the morals have arised in our culture because evolution/adaptation/survival-of-the-fittest has a positive influence on not killin each other. However, I feel God knew that (he is all knowing after all) and made use of it to help show the way. Thus, God is still behind morals. But you’ll never agree god was there before evolution so we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree then. </p>

<p>However, this still bugs me: "A person born without a moral compass will not find it in God, hence why there are just as many murderers who are religious as those who are not, and that’s not considering the crusades, burning at the stake, the brothels (of young male children) held by priests in the mid 1600’s, etc. "
First off, just because some prisoner says he believes in christ, buddha, or whatever religion he may be does not mean he TRULLY tries living its principles. Which brings in another point. Even if the prisoner tried his hardest he will still NEVER be perfect in implementing his religion. Only God is perfect… well christ is too if your chirstian. So judging god and whether he exists and is good on his followers is not logical or smart. For example. That is like saying an engineering professor is stupid and cannot build things because his class average on the last test was a 40% (engineering is widely known as a weed-out major and is brutal so low averages like that are common). </p>

<p>Now Gotakun… lol your gettin hype. but here we go:

  1. “We don’t threaten the lives of strangers who anger us because we know there are negative consequences. “God” didn’t establish your set of morals, your environment did, you did.”
    Of course there are consequences. There are spirtual ones from god and civil ones which were established BY god fearing men. So both consequences lead back to god.</p>

<p>2.“Every Christian assumes the others think like they do, because they all are under the false impression their source of morality is the same god.”
Wrong. Why do you think there are so Many divisions and denominations in the christian faith? We obviously don’t believe in the exact same things. Major things, like christ being our savior, are shared but there are still key differences.</p>

<p>3.“Based on GoOakland’s comments, I’m suspicious that he might not be capable of the same restraint as I in the absence of his god”
I would totally agree. If there was no god then I have nothing to fear/lose. See #1. However, if there was no god then I would not be here anyway. So IMO that is simply a made up situation. But you think god doesn’t exist anyway so like crazyday… we’re simply gonna disagree. </p>

<p>4.“What do they do? Everything their parents didn’t allow them to.”
Aren’t you proving my point? I already said without god we’d be savages (hince my belief in god). I assume that is not what you meant. Care to try again?</p>

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<p>O and gotukan, your list.
-Homosexuals… yeah well we’re just gonna have to disagree. Goes back to the whole moral argument.
-lack of moral restraint/development. Care to elaborate? I’m confused
-religion has nothing to do power. Power has the ability to corrupt people by destroying their humility. Religion does not remove this humility, power does. Religion is supposed to encourage humility… whether religious people actually do or not is different.
-too easily controlled huh. Anyone who “blindly” follows is ■■■■■■■■. There needs to be that realization that power can corrupt people even if they are religious. I don’t think this is a prevalent issue but I agree that we need to be aware of corruption.
-too focused on after life. Well if you believed there was a god and that the afterlife was FAR longer than this life then you would too. But that is something you simply can’t comprehend. Agree to disagree.
-unnecesary guilt. See afterlife, big deal. But yes we can beat ourselves up too much occasionally. That is why TRUE repentance is key and stressed so heavily so that we can be forgiven and move on.<br>
-neglect of problems. Exageration big time. Truely religious people know that god will only do his part if your put forth all of your effort. Obviously not all people are perfect in implementing this though and suffer the consequences. So, I agree, those who are lazy and don’t try to fix their problems are stupid… religious or not.
-false security. See “blindly” following. We must always look for corruption, agreed.</p>

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<p>If you think that you are not blindly following, why do you not feel homophobia is an issue?</p>

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<p>Just because a “god-fearing man” made a law doesn’t mean it was made because of some perceived punishment by god for that action… and if it was, then it doesn’t deserve to be a law in a secular nation like ours. Period.</p>

<p>Laws are made to maintain a society - can’t very well have a society if its not illegal to go around murdering people.</p>

<p>And I’d also like to get everyone here to disassociate “illegal” from “morally wrong” - laws have nothing to do with morality. Yes, we might legislate against some morally wrong things, but only because (again) they benefit the maintenance of society. “Illegal” means ONLY “against the law”, not “against morality”.
Now obviously, this is the ideal, and we actually do have idiotic people who think its fine to legislate religious or moral principles, so lets not go there.</p>

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<p>Again, go back to the question “Is something right because god commands it or does god command it because it is right?” This is the question posed in the Euthyphro and is central to the divine command theory held by (I imagine) the vast majority of theists who haven’t given this problem any thought.</p>

<p>Think about the implications of saying that “good” or “morally right” just means “doing what god commands”. First off, it renders any variation of the statement “god is good” completely meaningless - essentially all you are saying is “god does what god commands”, an empty statement. </p>

<p>Second, consider the further implications of saying that “wrong”=“prohibited by god”. From here, either god prohibits all things (and only things) that are actually wrong or something is wrong simply because god prohibits it. In the case of the former, you’re saying “god prohibits X because X is wrong”, which would just mean “god prohibits X because X is prohibited by god”, which again doesn’t make any sense. So you’re left with the second option, that X is only wrong because god prohibits it. But this leads to the problem that god could command/prohibit whatever he wants, and that thing would be completely and unquestionably morally right/wrong (respectively). Also it means that god can change his mind whenever he wants and thereby change morality itself. I.e. god could tomorrow command that we all torture and kill our first-born children in the most cruel way possible - the divine command theorist would have to admit that this then would not only be morally right but would actually be morally obligatory. </p>

<p>Of course, a theist is going to say “well, but god would never do that”, to which I would reply “why not?” - and of course the only answer is that there is an objective morality that is outside of gods control.</p>

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Lol…

I talked about this in my previous post.

The point I was making is that people in power have to be responsible, and being influenced by delusions or hallucinations is irresponsible. It’s downright scary, but no one ever thinks about it.

Look how many people chose a presidential candidate just because they were under the impression he was on their religious side. Ask them about any other specific issue and they have no idea how he stood. They just blindly followed the religious side.

Lol… I don’t know what you’re talking about. You completely agreed, so where is this “agree to disagree” coming from?

I’m pretty sure you missed the point of this list.

When one of my aunts was in an abusive situation, instead of actually doing anything, my grandmother asked her other children to PRAY WITH HER. It’s not about fixing your own problems, it’s about taking an active role and doing good for the world, for others.

Again, I really don’t think you understood my point.</p>

<p>If you want to be productive, please make the opposite list I mentioned, of the benefits of religion that cannot also be obtained in its absence.</p>

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<p>“I do have a fervent desire to dismantle the Vatican though; popes live in humongous palaces surrounded by valuable historic pieces while in places like Africa people are starving to death. What a joke.”</p>

<p>Whatever you may perceive as its faults, the face is that the Catholic Church does more than almost any other institution in the world to help the poor (CRS, St. VDP etc…). On top of the countless schools, universities, hospitals and other care centers that are on by Catholics with money from the Catholic Church and laity.</p>

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<p>And I mean that is just a mischaracterization. The Pope is not out buying summer homes in the Caribbean and vacationing whenever he feels like. Sure, he is living in the Vatican amongst amazing architectural works. But these works are as much “treasures of the Vatican” as they are treasures of Western Civilization, of the Christian and Catholic culture as whole. What is he going to do? Sell “La Pieta”? Sell the Sistine Chapel to the highest bidder? These are works of art that have inspired so many over hundreds of years, have become ingrained in our culture and inspire millions of faithful from around the world to make the pilgrimage to Rome.</p>

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<p>Why are there hundreds of new books on theology every year?</p>

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<p>OK, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re right. (You probably are.) But what does that mean, really? Is that some reason to gloat like you’ve found the death-knell of religion? I don’t think so. One of the real beauties of Christianity is its position on the outsider, troublemaker, the non-law abiding citizen, on the adulterer, the thief, the sinner. These are the people who need Christ the most and the people who Christ most associates with. In a way I think it makes sense that people in dire straits - wrapped up in drugs or gangs and in prison or headed to prison or whatever brand of trouble - would turn to Christ for guidance and a way out.</p>

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<p>But who is to say that God did not put all of that there?</p>

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<p>Yes, good point.</p>

<p>Perhaps science is just God playing a game with his creation, as a father would play catch with his son. (stole that from here: <a href=“http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2010/asteroids/[/url]”>http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2010/asteroids/&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

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<p>yes i do believe that there’s a god because i would not be here if there wasn’t he’s saved me to many times to count.</p>