<p>Here I’ll start:</p>
<p>“Skepticism is the beginning of faith”
-Oscar Wilde</p>
<p>“Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof.”
-Kahlil Gibran</p>
<p>I think this could work better than arguing.</p>
<p>"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. "
-Albert Einstein</p>
<p>I’ll go with old Albert on whether there’s something beyond science.</p>
<p>
I have debated with so many Christians who ultimately climb into a shell of ignorance and start repeating idioms… It doesn’t work at all. It’s almost like, in order to protect themselves from skeptical thoughts, from information that would contradict what they want to believe, they shut down and begin a nervous habit of self-brainwashing. It makes me wonder if the mechanisms that trap people in the Christian delusional reality and even convince them to mindlessly convert others were intentional… They must have been. The creator/creators were nothing short of geniuses (for their time). I feel like I have to undo what they have done… What a mess…</p>
<p>I’m just going to grab a beer and some popcorn.</p>
<p>Well, I guess we’ll all figure out the answer to this question in due time. Just give it about 70 more years lol…</p>
<p>lol be nice gotakun we’ve debated for 24 pages and I’m just kind of tired of it. These quotes do say more than I probably ever could honestly.</p>
<p>ikillers, I have not read all your posts, so maybe you have addressed this, but what differentiates faith in God from faith in little green goblins that live in your basement?</p>
<p>gotakun, Jesus loves you so much he is gonna dog you with his love 'til the cows come home. The TrueLoves of this world will pop up like a recurring dream, just because God loves the crud outta ya! The apostle Paul used to persecute and kill Christians for the fun of it, thinking he was doing good for society. Until, Jesus got him. Then he fell in love with Jesus and people. He really loves you, man.</p>
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<p>What makes your reality any less delusional? You cannot physically prove the in-existence of a God, nor the existence of him. People like you are just as bad as the nut-job hardcore religious type – always trying to force your thinking on people whom don’t agree with your viewpoints.</p>
<p>You can disprove what Christianity uses as evidence for his existence. I don’t think she’s forcing her viewpoint on anyone. It’s a forum, after all. She’s trying to argue her point.</p>
<p>Check out these historians re: the historicity of Jesus. The debate is not whether Jesus existed, it is whether you want to follow this amazing man/God. </p>
<p>Josephus
Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
Suetonius
Mara bar Sarapion</p>
<p>
I don’t have time right now to find a good operational definition of delusion for you, but the bottom line is that delusions are not necessarily false. I don’t have to disprove the existence of a god for the belief in one to qualify as a delusion.</p>
<p>Here’s an interesting article disputing the claim that religion truly is non-disprovable:
[Less</a> Wrong: Religion’s Claim to be Non-Disprovable](<a href=“http://lesswrong.com/lw/i8/religions_claim_to_be_nondisprovable/]Less”>Religion's Claim to be Non-Disprovable — LessWrong)</p>
<p>You can’t define words clinically only when it is convenient for your argument. If you wish to define delusion as a psychologist would, more power to you, but that means you don’t also get to use it as a pejorative.</p>
<p>
That was never my intention. I choose words deliberately… Words like “ignorant,” “delusional,” “significant,” “brainwash,” “schizophrenic,” “nonsense,” “irrelevant,” “illogical,” “inappropriate,” etc., should all be taken to mean exactly what they’re supposed to. I (almost) never intend to insult, although people no doubt take offense to these terms. If my intention is to insult, I choose a different set of words… “garbage,” “trash,” “crazy,” “stupid,” etc.</p>
<p>I think we both know that’s bs. If you were using those words in their scientific meaning, you would not come up with such gems as “It makes me wonder if the mechanisms that trap people in the Christian delusional reality and even convince them to mindlessly convert others were intentional…”</p>
<p>And btw, delusion is defined to be pathological. Christianity may be based on blind adherence to dogma or selective stupidity, but neither of those things is actually a disease.</p>
<p>gotakun, your word choices are very angry. I say this as fact, not to hurt you.</p>
<p>
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
-Albert Einstein</p>
<p>
…If you take a step back and observe the religious machine at work, it does exactly what I described. It takes hold in people’s lives. One way or another, they are convinced of the delusions, at which point it becomes dangerous to question the truthfulness of their beliefs, for fear of punishment, for fear of social disapproval. A goal is created that requires a lot of effort (studying, living a life free of sin, worshiping regularly), and I already discussed effort justification earlier. Much of actually practicing the religion is repetition of phrases, verbally or mentally, re-reading passages over and over; it’s all brainwashing. At this point, despite what they might think, followers (specifically, Christians) are no longer thinking for themselves. I honestly believe that. They are mindless tools, an army, if you will. Through social bullying or exploitation (such as in the case of naive children), they then set out to convert others to believe in the same delusions and repeat the cycle.</p>
<p>There are so many other factors I didn’t mention… The religion encompasses, entraps the believer, just like the delusions of a schizophrenic.</p>
<p>I understand what you mean by pathological, but since there is no proven physiological cause for schizophrenia, there really isn’t a way to determine if delusions are pathological or not. If you have some insight into this, feel free to explain.
You can only see my words from your perspective, which is why they sound angry. My word choice is objective and neutral…</p>
<p>I much rather take the beauty of love that emanates from true Christians, then your paradigms, gotakun. To be as cynical, angry, and miserable as you has got to be very hard to live with. Be full of happy, full of positively encouraging and hope filled living. Be a refreshed, alive gotakun.</p>