Do you believe we suffer from "small family syndrome"?

berurah · May 16, 2006, 5:25pm

And in the case of MY six kids, I feel quite confident in saying that they will be SIX positive contributors to society, SIX people who have the hearts, souls, and skills to make the world a BETTER place for many others, SIX considerate, caring, loving people who make this world a brighter and better place. NOW, do the math! ;)

CGM, if you and your attitudes (not to mention the WAY you express them) are testimony to the family you have raised, please offer me something else. You do not “look out” for ANYONE but yourself. Pardon my bluntness.

~berurah

CC_Admin · May 16, 2006, 5:31pm

jlauer95: I am not sure I took too far a leap:

CC_Admin · May 16, 2006, 5:34pm

Oh, CGM, you had me there for a little bit… And then, BAM, something like “See, in my view, I look beyond my little household, look to when my children move on into the world as adults, not just to when they are under my roof” comes along. I am assuming, of course, that you are implying that people with more than your two children have no world view or thoughts of conservation or whatnot. If that is an incorrect assumption, I apologize. If, on the other hand, it is correct…then I am truly sorry your “world view” is so small and unforgiving.

sybbie719 · May 16, 2006, 5:35pm

Raising my hand as the exception to this, as child # 7 out of 10 kids in my family every single child’s birthday was celebrated with a party (1-jan, 1-Feb, 2 June, 2 July, 2 Aug, 1-Oct and 1-Dec). Even as adults and both of our parents had passed, those of us that living in close proximity of one another, we had family dinners for every one’s birthday.
I remember my aunts telling my mother that she had 10 spoiled kids. I hate to say it , but we were never for a lack of stuff as we always had a house full of presents, clothes, new bikes, etc. My mother was just a whiz at handling money. All of us are tax payers and productive human beings , 8 graduated college degrees, some have multiple degrees so I think we did ok. I must admit, we have had our ups and downs through the years, but I love them all with a passion, and I don’t know for a minute what I would do with out them and I feel so blessed to be their sister.

Out of all of my siblings, I am the only one who has an only child, I have 2 sisters have no kids, and one sister who has 8 kids every one else has 2 to 4 kids.

It’s a great time when we all get together, and mine is probably one of the most down to earth least “entiltled” one of the bunch and if you did not know, you would never have her pegged to be an only child because she is not selfish or any of the other sterotypes that are attributed to only children. I know that we definitely have not gone through the small family syndrome (even though I am still trying to wrap my mind around exactly what it is).

I don’t think it is a matter of how many kids one has but how are we raising our kids that is the issue. I know that I could have raised my kid giving her any and everything that she wanted, but would that have accomplished, nothing but the accumulation of stuff. From the time she was a little girl, she only got one gift for christmas, because I never wanted to raise her to know that the holiday was not about who would have the most stuff. Every chiristmas, she also had to give to others, because no matter how much or how little you have there is always some one with less. At school at the end of the term, the money that she has left on her declining balance, she uses to feed other people who have gone through their money and donates some to their schools food drive.

The last time I checked it was still a womans choice to bear or not bear children. After it is all said and done, everyone’s situation is different and people will do what is best for them and their family.

Having a small family doesn’t make you the most resourceful or the least wasteful person on the block because those with big families are already pros having spent their whole lives balancing, stretching and working with limited resourses and creating systems of equity.

jlauer95 · May 16, 2006, 5:39pm

I feel very sad that this thread has turned into an some kind of cruel attack on those who have selflessly chosen to have more than 2 kids and raise them beautifully.

Berurah ~ 
from reading your posts over time, I am quite confident that your beautiful children are going to be “contributors” to society – job CREATORS, business CREATORS, Discoverers of cures, caretakers of people, etc. Anyone on this thread that has implied that your family is or will be using more than a so-called “fair share” of resources should be ashamed of themselves!!! If the shameful shoe fits, wear it! - and you’ll be excused from using that resource!

jlauer95 · May 16, 2006, 5:44pm

sybbie:

you are probably an exception, not the rule. When I was growing up in a Catholic school where middle-class families typically had 6,8,10 or more kids, I can tell you with certainty, none of them had bday parties every year. For “non birthday party years,” such a large family would typically have a cake and ice cream and a few presents for the bday kid and perhaps grandma and grandpa would be there, too.

The fact that your aunts made such comments strongly suggests that they knew how unusual your annual bday parties were. If such a thing was a common occurence, your aunts wouldn’t have said a thing!

jlauer95 · May 16, 2006, 5:46pm

Having a small family doesn’t make you the most resourceful or the least wasteful person on the block because those with big families are already pros having spent their whole lives balancing, stretching and working with limited resourses and creating systems of equity.<<<<

I agree with this!!! Parents should be able to choose their family’s size.

It doesn’t matter which size a family is – large, small or in between. One particular size is not necessarily the most or least wasteful or user of resources.

jlauer95 · May 16, 2006, 6:00pm

And, that is the point of the thread! YES, some “onlies” and some kids with just one or two siblings are being raised without developing the “gimmes”. And some kids from larger families can be selfish, too. But, I think it would be hard to deny that kids from smaller families are going to be “more likely” to “get more stuff” (and pricier stuff) than kids from larger families with comparable incomes. And kids from smaller families are more likely to be given pricier birthday parties and have more money spent on their Xmas (or hannukuh) presents and have more money spent on their proms/graduations. (I’m comparing families with comparable incomes. I am not comparing a 6 kid Kennedy family with a 2 kid family with a low income.)

sybbie719 · May 16, 2006, 6:01pm

Yeah, but my mom took it all with a grain of salt because she was the only girl with 6 brothers and never knew her own mother who died when she was a baby.

She also considered the source because these were the same women (her s-i-laws) who would call each other up and say “you have to come pick up momma”, once my grandmother got old and stayed with them for more than 2 weeks. My mother put an end to all of that crap by having my grandmother (her m-i-l) come live with us, where she stayed until she died and my aunts never got over it.

My father’s sisters were also people who had 2-3 kids who did not want for anything and literally wasted their lives (drugs, men, jail, etc).

ariesathena · May 16, 2006, 6:32pm

Random thought:

Back in the day, a lot of siblings shared rooms when they came from big families. A 5-bedroom house is pretty big, but doesn’t fit Mom/Dad and 6 kids. When those kids went off to college, sharing a room with someone was nothing new.

Now, it is rare for kids to share rooms, unless they are part of really really big families or just don’t have many resources at all. It’s the exception, not the rule. You are seeing colleges that are trying to accomodate the desires for single rooms, private bathrooms, or for full-sized beds. There’s certainly a generational shift going on. College used to reflect what a lot of students had at home - shared room, bathroom shared with a bunch of other people - but that model doesn’t fit anymore.

Berurah: I can only imagine how sad it would be for your four youngest if you stopped at two kids. There would be a lot to miss out on. Some people are just cut out to be parents.

jlauer95 · May 16, 2006, 6:34pm

I never said that people have to have large families in order to have great kids. If I thought that, I’d run out and adopt a bunch. And I don’t think that having a small family somehow always (or even mostly always) equals selfishness or rampant consumerism.

What my original post was commenting on was current trends – such as: pricier proms, pricier weddings, pricier bday parties. I just think these trends have gotten such a hold in our culture because families have gotten smaller. To say that I was making “judgments” is just too harsh - since I only have 2 kids. I was posing a thought and wondered what others thought.

It was a “conversation starter.”

No one has been able to adequately argue against my thesis.

Allmusic · May 16, 2006, 6:41pm

Truth is Jlaurer, that is your thesis, but I know plenty of people with small families, my own included, who do not adhere to whatever current trends you are describing. We have never had the blowout birthday party, the sweet 16, etc. I didn’t blow $25K on my wedding, and I sure am not planning to for my own children.

It’s a values thing, not a size of family thing. I think there is a judgement here that the kids from big families share rooms better, do chores better, take care of themselves and others more, are less greedy, less giving, etcetcetc., all because they are one of multiple children.

I contend there are only children like that, as well as spoiled entitled children who are one of seven.

The generalizing and broad brush statements on this thread are making some of us bristle.

ariesathena · May 16, 2006, 6:43pm

JLauer’s post #58 could be summed up with “economy of scale,” but she gave some excellent examples.

A family of 6 kids, who grew up in a slightly overcrowded house, won’t necessarily use up three times the energy of CGM’s kids. They might move into smaller homes, not being used to nor wanting all the extra space; they might share a car with a husband or wife, not being used ot having their own; they might take on roommates, as sharing living quarters is nothing new.

Large families tend to do a car-share thing, where the cars are passed to whomever needs it. I’m one of four kids. When we all pile into the minivan, it doesn’t take that much extra gas (minivan gets about 20 mpg) to get us somewhere. There’s not much extra food at the dinner table at night. Things get handed down through the family. My brother is using bookcases that my grandfather built for me decades ago.

When my little siblings get out into the world, you can rest assured that I’ll recycle a lot of my “stuff” to them instead of throwing it out. The youngest one will have three older siblings to mooch from before ever buying something new.

Not bashing anyone’s personal choices - as I said, I don’t want ANY kids - just pointing out that there is another side to all this. In this day and age, worrying about overpopulation from VOLUNTARY kids is nuts. Look at Europe: negative birth rate. If someone has eight kids, there are enough people out there who have zero or one or two to balance everything out. Nowadays, when three kids is a big family, it’s absurd to worry about Americans overpopulating the earth. Let’s worry about something else - like families that have kids but neglect them or the situation in Africa. Mindless criticism doesn’t get us anywhere.

jlauer95 · May 16, 2006, 6:45pm

Good point…

So for those criticizing Berurah’s family size – which of her kids should she not have had??? child #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, or #6??? 
Should she just have had #2 and #6? or perhaps #1 & #4?

I know that my sister will be forever indebted to child #7 in my family – he donated a kidney to her when she needed it to survive. (That’s one big advantage to having more kids – more possible donors for kidney transplants and bone marrow transplants!)

but, again, I don’t care how many kids a person chooses to have. Just offering one more defense for poor maligned (but excellent mom) Berurah!

Allmusic · May 16, 2006, 6:46pm

Hey, I think anyone who has six kids is a saint, so hats off to Berurah!

berurah · May 16, 2006, 6:47pm

Hey, thanks…I really appreciate the kind words, jlauer. The thing is, I really do not see my family being any better–or any “worse”–than anyone else’s based upon size alone. That’s why these things are called “PERSONAL DECISIONS.” I am at a loss to understand the amount of judgment offered by CGM. What’s to be gained by this proclamation of “selfishness”?

Thanks, aries! It would not only be sad for them, but for the older two who ADORE and cherish them! And as for us…we cannot even imagine our lives without “the littles.” <3 <3 <3

Sybbie~
Great wisdom, as usual, from a VERY wise woman! {{{{{HUGS}}}}}

~berurah

CC_Admin · May 16, 2006, 6:53pm

jlauer95: perhaps part of why I read your original post as negative is titling something “small family syndrome.” Regardless of your having been in a large family and having a smaller family yourself, hopefully you can see that calling something a “syndrome” might be off-putting to people with small families. Your thesis - which also included “kids with the gimmie’s” - is as hard to refute as it is to support, simply because families are a function of so many different variables that it would be prohibitive, if not impossible, to relate.

I would posit, in fact, that the things you mention might also reasonably be ascribed to some parents with many children who want to compensate for what they perceive as a lack of “quality time” with their kids. And that the “gimmie’s” might result from competition for things among multiple family members.

As for numbers - I don’t think anything in society can be pinned on the kid count.

berurah · May 16, 2006, 7:13pm

Not that I owe anyone an explanation as personal as this, but perhaps it will lead to some greater understanding…

I was raised in a family of two parents (intact marriage) and four children (I was the second). Unfortunately, my birth family (family of origin, whatever) was HIGHLY dysfunctional. My mother was afflicted with a very damaging and debilitating personality disorder, and through thirty years of manipulative machinations, she fractured our family into tiny bits…disowned one daughter at 18, on-and-off disowned another daughter, and finally disowned and disinherited me (and my children) a few years before her death, pulling my sister, whom she had pretty much detested and disdained for her entire life, back into the fold. My younger brother was the only one who did not suffer in that way at her hands…though we ALL suffered greatly in one way or another. In the end, I was kept away from her deathbed, though I had sought to “make things right,” banned from her funeral, and, oddly enough, never even officially notified of her death…The last interchange I EVER had with my mother on this earth was when she kicked my family and me out of her home after my brother’s wedding, followed us out, and screamed at me, “YOUR CHILDREN WILL GROW TO HATE YOU!!!” It was a truly chilling and especially cruel prediction for someone whose kids are her entire life.

In some ways, I suppose, my having six children WAS a selfish thing to do. It was SELFISH of me to want a FAMILY. It was SELFISH of me to crave true love, something that was never given to me by my birth family, and it was SELFISH of me to try to fill in the missing pieces of my life with beautiful, innocent children.

I will never, ever forget the moment of searing clarity that descended upon me as I sat nursing my fifth child (third daugter), then a days-old infant. It was at that suspended instant that I came to the full realization that it didn’t matter how many children I bore, nursed, and nurtured…there would NEVER, EVER be anyone to nurture ME in that way. What I had missed out on could not be supplanted by having babies, no matter how many I chose to bear. It was an incredibly poignant and sobering moment–and one I will NEVER forget.

Now, don’t get me wrong…I’ve ALWAYS loved children. My two degrees are in education, and I’ve been a “kid magnet” my entire life. I find children intriguing and refreshing…always have, always will. Were my “reasons” for having a large family “valid”??? Perhaps, perhaps not. And the thing is, it doesn’t really matter NOW. What matters NOW is that I love each of them beyond measure. I treasure them for the people THEY are. And I am raising them to be kind, decent, loving, and productive human beings.

Incidentally, the healing they have brought to my life is immeasurable. I am complete now–happy and content. At least as happy and content as anyone can be who has been “orphaned” by a living family.

The truth is, it is really no one else’s business how many children someone has, at least if the family supports the children fully and cares for them in a loving way. We do that. So really, it’s all good, right?

~berurah

citygirlsmom · May 16, 2006, 7:32pm

So, in berurah life, we the examples of two large families on each end of the spectrum, one that worked, one that didn’t- that shows me that all the andecdotes showing how great big families are just that, anecdotes, as are my stories

To me, I found enough love with my two children, they were enough for me and my H to have that “full family” feel, enough to show us love, caring, and enough for us to love and care for

For OUR family, we have lots of loving friends, lots of our childrens friends, lots of people WE have met through service, and kids we have helped at homeless shelters, being a girl scout troop leader, a volunteer at my Ds schools each and every year, (much to their chagrin), starting our own charity drives

Everyone has ways to feel complete and helpful and loving

We chose a small family for a variety of reasons- selfish, maybe- but for US, it has worked very well, and we have been able to share that with many many people

I am not saying LARGE families do not do that, but I am saying small families can have as much love, caring, and all the things the OP and Beruhah have described

And I still stand by that we have to worry about our earth, and being congnizant of that is paramount for our kids, their kids and down the line

And intersting that the large family supporters had no response that I caught regarding adoption, foster care, etc…that to me, is very nobel, so if I missed something somewhere, I am sorry, but that can be a very good way of having that large family

I do not apologize for caring about the earth and I really do feel that small families are better for our planet…if you don’t that thought, well, it doesn’t matter…when I think about the orphans in Tanzia we do fund raisers for all the time, when I think about the kids in foster care we collect duffel bags for, when I think about so many kids in need, that, right now, we are doing what we can to help, I get sad, and wonder, who else is helping them, with all this love and energy in the world

yes, I am rambling, but I see the world, I said Me, I see it beyond my doors, and I am not saying others don’t, but it what I see and think about, alot

roshke · May 16, 2006, 7:46pm

Berurah, Right!

CGM, Your feelings on this subject remind me of the scene in my childhood favorite, Cheaper by the Dozen, when the woman from Planned Parenthood is so aghast and mortified by the size of the wonderful Gilbreth family “just twelve miles from National Planned Parenthood headquarters!”

I would have loved a bigger family if that had been advisable. I got terribly ill after the birth of #2, and didn’t recover fully for a year.

However, as far as the original post goes, jlauer, I will go out on a limb and say that it’s not inconceivable (pun intended) that this may contribute as just one of many factors to what you are describing.

Do you believe we suffer from "small family syndrome"?

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