<p>S1 is 13 and plays the french horn, trumpet, piano, sings and dances ballet. He is currently in the middle school concert band playing french horn, the jazz band on trumpet, singing in the 7/8 chorus, and accompaning the 5/6 chorus. He has a private horn lesson each week and a piano lesson twice a month. He is attending a one week music camp this summer. He is also homeschooled and not very academic. I’m concerned about him preparing for college or a conservatory considering his dislike of academics. Are there secondary programs that are less academic? At what age should he attend longer summer programs? We have relocated for D to study ballet, will we need to relocate for S to study horn? Should he be part of a youth orchestra particularly if it requires a long drive? Should he be in a more intensive music program or can that wait until after high school? OK, that’s a start for questions. I’m sure I’ll have more.</p>
<p>So many questions. Let’s take them in order…</p>
<p>A strict conservatory environment, like Curtis, Juilliard, Peabody, etc… is not going to require a lot of academics. A basic writing course, a few semesters of music history, perhaps a couple of electives in broad non-musical areas. He may average about one academic class per semester that he has to get through. Other than the music history, the classes probably will not be all that academically challenging. Colleges with music departments (Indiana, Michigan, CMU…) tend to have more required academic courses. Just about every program has its curriculum very well spelled out on the institution’s web site, so you can compare them well ahead of time. A lot of the kids who audition for the top programs are home schooled. He will not be out of place in that respect.</p>
<p>He should attend longer summer programs when he is musically and socially ready to do so. If he is serious about getting into one of the top musical programs, it is good to have him audition for a top level summer program to see where he stands with respect to his competition. The summers before junior and senior year in high school are good times to shoot for those top programs with the year or two before that in an intermediate program.</p>
<p>I cannot tell you whether you will have to relocate for your son. You will first have to find out whether there are any top horn teachers within the distance you are willing to commute for lessons. You might ask some of the other horn parents on the board, like binx, for specific recommendations. Teachers at colleges and in conservatories sometimes take on promising high schoolers as private students. If there are any colleges with decent music programs in your area, you might contact the horn teacher(s) there.</p>
<p>Youth orchestras are an extremely valuable experience. They are essential if the high school orchestra that he will be in is not of the best quality. It is easily worth an hour commute each way on a week night to get him into a good youth orchestra.</p>
<p>I do not know how intense his current program might be, so it is hard to answer the last question. By the time he gets to high school, he needs to be studying with one of the best teachers that you can find, preferably one with a track record of getting students into good college programs. The competition for spots at the top schools is pretty intense.</p>
<p>If you have not already done so, you may wish to read the postings at <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-family-s-experience.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-family-s-experience.html</a></p>
<p>I have a couple questions for you: Your S is 13 - Has he indicated that he wants to spend the rest of his life pursuing music at a high level? </p>
<p>Be very careful that he doesn’t fall into the trap of thinking music is easy - especially since he isn’t fond of academics. Music theory, for example, loses a handful of kids every year who didn’t realize they would have to “think that hard”. Musicians as a whole tend to be a pretty intelligent group. Not liking academics is fine; not being able to do academics might indicate a problem.</p>
<p>We ran into a teacher here and there along the way who was convinced that music was a hobby, and only taken seriously by people who couldn’t do anything else, perpetuating the myth of it being easy. We also ran into a handful of kids every year who were struggling in school, but pulling A’s in band, orchestra, or chorus, and therefore their parents pushed them that direction - when the grading was really done based on attendance, effort, paper exams - and not on talent. </p>
<p>So do you have any kind of feedback from “an outsider” who thinks your kid is showing that he has what it takes? Even conservatories look for evidence that a student is teachable, and thoughtful, and able to learn.</p>
<p>I don’t mean these questions in negative ways - I just think your S is at the right age to begin having to think seriously about how hard he wants to pursue this, and at what cost.</p>
<p>At this point your S seems to be still “playing around.” If he is serious about horn, he will probably have to give up trumpet soon (or vice versa). It uses a different embouchure. A teacher once also told me my kid wouldn’t be able to continue to pursue piano and composition, just because of the dividing of attention. He did, but it was hard. Since your S is homeschooled, he has a little more time for some “cross-training.”</p>
<p>Bassdad gave you some good insight. The thread he linked to is a must-read, and answers a lot of your questions. It’s generally what people are referring to when they say they wish they’d found this site earlier!</p>
<p>BassDad, thank you for that extensive thread. The journey sounds very similar to the ballet journey only a few years later. Which is what I was afraid of. </p>
<p>Binx, I’ll try to give you more insight. Yes, he has said he wishes to be an orchestral musician. Specifically he wants to be the first chair horn for the Dallas Symphony. He doesn’t see music as being easy, just natural. He’s done well with the music theory he’s had thrown at him so far. His problem with academics is in writing, completing projects, and interest. He’s very bright but not a conformer to the public school teaching methods. Give him a piece of music to learn and he slaves at it. Everyone acknowledges his talent. His peers, teachers, other adults. </p>
<p>His original piano teacher at age 6 saw right off that he was musically inclined. He didn’t have any formal music training past age 6 until he started trumpet at age 11. This past school year his band teacher asked him to play the horn. He auditioned this winter for the state regional program and made 3rd chair out of 8. He scored a 98 on the audition after studying horn for a few months. There are two of these programs in the state. His teacher says he has a good ear. One of the best she’s seen in a while.</p>
<p>You’re right he does seem to be playing around. He really loves the piano, but realizes pianists are a dime a dozen. I don’t think he’s fallen in love with the horn but he wants to. I’m hoping this one week program this summer will help clarify that for him one way or the other. His private teacher recommended he switch to a double horn so we’ve purchased a used Conn 6D. If down the road he decides the horn really isn’t his instrument we’ll at least be able to resell it.</p>
<p>Your comment on finding this site earlier is precisely why I’m here now. There is a very extensive site for ballet training and I stumbled on it at just the right time when D was 11. For the past year I’ve been looking for a similar site for music. I found it. Thanks for being here. </p>
<p>I don’t think his training and skills are keeping pace with his age and potential. I fear there aren’t enough resources here for him, so I want to try and use what’s here most effectively. I really don’t want to move again for a child’s training if I’m just over looking what’s here.</p>
<p>Frankly, I rather he pursued ballet. I know he’s getting world class ballet training here, every bit as good as Interlochen or Walnut Hill. And he’d get a paying contract with a regional company right out of high school, but music is his true love.</p>
<p>Here’s my to do list. Feel free to add to it.
- Contact the horn player a few towns over.
- Find out about youth orchestra opportunities.
- Make a summer music program wish list for summer after sophomore and junior year.
- Continue with current private teacher for now.
- Send him to in-state summer programs until later.</p>
<p>My kids both went to New England Music Camp in Sidney Maine for three summers. They went the summers after grades 8, 9, 10. This particular camp has a nice blend of “camp” experiences with an emphasis on music. There are classes five mornings a week, including ensembles. They rehearse for one week and have a concert each weekend of the session. The faculty is excellent. My kids both took theory there for three summers. I have to say, the music was wonderful, and the kids were from all over the country as well as out of the country. I can heartily recommend the place. I believe they have one four week session and one three week session. Admission is by audition tape, and scholarships are available. </p>
<p>I’ll add my two cents worth. Especially since you homeschool, I would recommend looking into some kind of youth orchestra experience. I think playing in an ensemble is important.</p>
<p>Is there a precollege program anywhere near you? If so, many of them have programs for middle school students as well as high school students. Your guy might enjoy playing in a brass quintet…and they are always looking for horn players.</p>
<p>Re: the future. Well…college is a long way away for your guy. But I agree with Binx. The music students we know are a very smart lot. In fact most did quite well in school. They chose to pursue music, but most could have also pursued an academic major. My son went to a major university with a conservatory type music program. Because of that he had to take core university requirements. And he was required to pass a university writing course. I will tell you that even musicians have to write. DS has written his own bios for programs, as program notes for musical pieces. He views this as “part” of his music. He is at a conservatory for graduate school and still finds writing important. So…I would say, don’t lose sight of that important skill.</p>
<p>hornmom, welcome. Just to add my 2 cents to the excellent advice you’ve already gotten, I’ll re-emphasize the importance of a quality youth orchestra, or a pre-college program if one is available. As thumper said, ensemble play is important, and a critical developmental aspect in his growth as a musician. Additionally, in a high quality program, he’ll be surrounded by like minded peers, a number of whom are extremely serious about music, and will follow a music career path.</p>
<p>It’s been my experience that the kids with the drive feed off each other, and play up to the level of those surrounding them. It’s not competitive in a true sense, but they seem to gain and learn from others strengths. The changes and growth can be exponential.</p>
<p>Stress, but don’t sweat the academics. Critical and analytical thinking, good verbal and written skill sets, organizational abilities are all essential assets for success. Position these to your son as they relate to a potential career in music… the ability to communicate and interact with stand partners, principals, music directors; running the numbers to see if a free lance gig is a moneymaker, breakeven, or a loss after expenses; negotiating and understanding contracts; keeping track of written/recorded music, receipts, expenses, etc.; the ability to utilize these skills to self-market as a performer; understanding and analyzing the historical references of the time period in which a piece was written.</p>
<p>Like thumper’s my son was in a conservatory level performance program within a university setting. His academics were good, (top 10% of class, 1300 SAT I’s, a number of AP exams where he got college credits, NHS) not great but it enabled him a choice, as he needs a certain mental stimulation beyond music. And this was a kid who was basically music 24/7 from before high school.</p>
<p>And do remember this: he is 13. He may well change his mind.</p>
<p>Good luck. Enjoy the ride, but (as others have said) hang on tightly.</p>
<p>Thanks for adding some more information - that helps. It sounds like you are on the ball. Can you tell us where you live? Or at least which coast? We might be able to help you find some resources.</p>
<p>One of my son’s favorite summer programs is a horn camp run by Kendall Betts (called, if you can imagine, Kendall Betts Horn Camp. 
) It is in New England. My S has gone there at least 3 (or 4?) times, and would love to go again someday, if his schedule permits. Maybe even as a teacher some day! It is a week long camp, with 3 back-to-back sessions, so you can go more than one week. You can audition for scholarships. My kid has never paid to go (except travel)! I believe high school is the minimum age, but your S is almost there. My S credits KBHC with a lot of technical and practical guidance. Everything from choosing schools and teachers to knowing what kind of horn to get to very basic technical aspects of playing. Networking and experience and excellent teaching. Bookmark the site, and look at it again in a year or two.</p>
<p>In your thread title, you asked for a map. I can’t give you a map for your son, but I can show you the path my S took, and perhaps you can appropriate the parts you like.</p>
<p>My S began piano in second grade. He proved to be unusually talented, and that was our first clue. (Although in hindsight, we should have seen clues before than, including that he was singing repeated made-up melodies before he could talk.) In 4th grade, the school music teacher recommended that S join one, then another, local choir. In 5th grade, the choir sang with the Atlanta Symphony, and S stood behind the horns. It was love at first note.</p>
<p>In 6th grade he begged to start the horn. We said no. We had good reasons! But the band director said he was a natural, and we relented. Who can resist compliments about their own kid?</p>
<p>In 7th grade he began private lessons. Through a flukey series of events, he ended up taking lessons from the Atlanta Symphony member he had stood behind two years earlier. We drove an hour each way to lessons, but it was only once every 3 weeks or so.</p>
<p>At the end of 7th grade he went to an “Encore” summer band camp run by a local college. Summer after 8th grade, he went to a different band camp, run by UGA. In 9th grade he joined the youth symphony, which he stayed in for 10th and 11th grades. Summer after 9th, he went to Brevard. Summer after 10th and 11th, he went to Kendall Betts.</p>
<p>Along the way he began entering competitions and such. He began entering compositions while still in grade school. (His first, written after 3 months of piano lessons in 2nd grade, was disqualified, because the judges did not believe a child wrote it.) In middle school he did “festival” every year, playing for judges. In 7th grade he tried out for all state, and didn’t make it. In 8th grade, he made first chair. At the end of 11th grade he won a competition sponsored by the International Horn Society, which was a huge boost both publically and personally. That same summer we moved to Germany.</p>
<p>In Germany he studied with 3 different famous horn players. One of them had been one of the judges for the competition. The other two were friends of Kendall Betts’. </p>
<p>Obviously, my S’s path has been unique. But the generalities are there: take private lessons, find summer programs with good students and teachers, look for competitions and festival opportunities, find a good youth orchestra. We did not move for our son - rather he moved for us! But we looked for ways to make the most of where we’d been planted, and we were planted in some pretty fertile soil, too. There were bumps along the way as well. That’s another story.</p>
<p>Welcome Hornmom!</p>
<p>I can’t add much to the wonderful advice and experience others have shared. Upper strings are more along my knowledge base - I grew up with a horn playing sibling - love the instrument!</p>
<p>I did want to give a slightly different perspective on academics. Professionally and personally, I’ve worked with and known a number of students who pursued music at the highest levels of college/conservatory training. Many were very gifted and interested academically and could have attended any number of select colleges/universities. Others, however, had less native academic ability, were poor standardized test takers, had trouble combining challenging academics with serious music study or were not interested in committing time to rigorous academic study. The less than stellar SAT/ACT’s, acceptable but not notable GPAs and lack of AP classes didn’t prevent this later group of music kids from getting into top conservatories - Juilliard, Cleveland Institute of Music, New England, Oberlin, etc. </p>
<p>The conservatories and university music depts. generally list their academic requirements and expectations. Some don’t require SATs at all and for some, these are optional. You may also find GPA and course expectations that might help with high school planning.</p>
<p>The only non-music course that seems to be universally required in all the conservatory or university programs I’ve looked at seems to be some type of writing or English 101 or equivalent! I know kids that have avoided all classes requiring “papers” after that, but some writing skill seems to be expected everywhere.</p>
<p>Thumper1, I had looked at New England music Camp but it was too much “camp” for the money. We live in Maine, we can cross the street to go canoing and the kids “camp” in the back yard. I appreciate the thought and found it ironic the suggestion of a camp in ME. </p>
<p>Binx, I could kiss you. Kindell Betts sounds like just the thing!</p>
<p>Musicianmom, your comments are very reassuring. I have to threaten to take away instruments to get S to do his school work.</p>
<p>Hornmom, Too bad that NEMC is too close to home. My D found it to be a really fun experience with just the right combination of music and social activities.</p>
<p>Depending on where in Maine you are (it really does make a difference if you are in the Southern Maine, Kittery, York, Kennebunk area, or much further north), you could take wonderful advantage of the excellent youth opportunities in Boston. The auditions for junior MYWE have already passed, but there are so many fabulous opportunities for ensemble play through the prep school at NEC:</p>
<p><a href=“https://necprepauditions.com/requirements.php[/url]”>https://necprepauditions.com/requirements.php</a></p>
<p>There is also GYBSO, the Greater Boston Youth Symphony Orchestra, which has four progressively more difficult orchestras, so there are levels for most kids, from new players to advanced.</p>
<p>My son has played with a bunch of kids from Maine, so I know it’s possible, again, depending upon how far north you are located!</p>
<p>One word about academics: it does seem that there is more merit money for kids who had both excellent academic profiles AND auditions.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean it’s a camp…well, yes, it’s a camp. But the focus really is on music. And it gives music kids a chance to actually be part of other activities with kids of like minds. I’m not trying to push the place if it’s not right for your child, but there are a number of posters here whose kids went there for their first “summer music” experience. It’s not the place for everyone, but it’s mighty good quality music and music instruction.</p>
<p>Agreed that the precollege programs in Boston are great.</p>
<p>I remember looking at summer programs last fall when it became clear that S was a music man. I remember well looking at NEMC and now that I clear the cob webs I had also seen Kendall Betts. My reservations about NEMC are based on my experience with ballet summer programs. Warm up starts at 8AM and formal classes start at 9AM. There’s a one hour lunch break and then they are back in classes and rehearsals until 4:30. This program runs about $700 per week for boarding students. At $1,000 NEMC has a lot of recreation time and part of the instruction time is practice time. I feel the kids should be practicing on their own time. During down time D is on campus practicing her piourettes on her own time. I can’t afford to send my kids to summer camp particularly when we live in summer camp. If I pay for them to go, I want the most education for the buck. I know it would be fun but I don’t have the money to pay for fun for funsake. I know that sounds cold but I have to be pragmatic.</p>
<p>KB ended up in the cobwebs because of the age for admissions. I remember now saying to son "I found where you need to go when you’re 15."I imagine the down time is far less structured than NEC and that might be difficult when S is young. The average age of students is probably older also. He’d probably only go a week per summer until he’s older.</p>
<p>This summer he is going to University of Southern Maine for one week. Boston is four hours for us. We are in central Maine. We are between Colby College and University of Maine Orono.</p>
<p>The summer program at NEC looks interesting. Where do the kids usually stay since there isn’t any housing? Are most of the students locals? I like that individual practice is monitored.</p>
<p>What about hype? I know some ballet programs are highly competitive to get into but once you’re accepted and in the program it becomes obvious it just a money making machine with huge classes and very little instruction. I like that KB has a 4:1 ratio.</p>
<p>My S has only ever gone for 1 week per summer at KBHC. Scholarships are only for one week - more than that, and he would have had to pay. Yes, 15 is the age limit. There is a high school group, a college group, and an adult group (generally non-professionals). HS and college kids sleep in pretty rustic cabins, and everyone has a job. (My kid always volunteers to clean bathrooms. It’s his favorite job at home, too.) The kids are pretty free - no houseparents or whatever - so they expect a certain degree of maturity. It is serious horn playing; KB does NOT put up with garbage - lateness to classes, etc. He had a hissy fit one year because a lot of the highschoolers were sleeping through “optional” morning programs, and he didn’t feel like they were practicing hard enough. One kid was asked to never come back due to an attitude problem.</p>
<p>If you go there for serious work, though, you won’t be disappointed. Caliber of the faculty is incredible.</p>
<p>Be careful in your desire to make sure the child has enough music ‘education’ in his camp experience. As a student, if you are taught well in the lessons and have lots of performance opportunities you will have PLENTY to do in your practice sessions.<br>
Also, horn players, especially young teenagers, cannot practice hours like ballet dancers. Be very careful how you compare the two experiences. They are really not the same. Dancers use their entire body and must be prepared for a professional career by their late teens. Horn players must practice carefully and efficiently; my husband is a horn player in a major symphony and is recovering from embouchure hernia surgery. That’s why I use the word ‘careful’ !!
Another big difference is that I think generally dance lessons happen in a class setting. Music lessons are mostly one on one. Chamber groups can be four to one teacher. So I think that’s more why the fees are higher.</p>
<p>With regard to competitive summer programs. If my clarinet/alto sax playing daughter were to audition for only 4 programs what 4 should they be?</p>
<p>Hornmom, too much playing causes my daughter torn lips and hand aches. Make sure he has plenty of rest time.</p>
<p>Where are you located? My D went to Interlochen and took both clarinet (primary instrument) and alto sax lessons, although they hit you for big bucks on the 2nd instrument. If you’re mid-west located, Interlochen is one of the better ones and I recommend it highly. She also attended NHSMI at Northwestern, but she, nor I, was terribly impressed.</p>
<p>After reading OperaHorn’s comments I looked up embouchure injuries. OMGsh! Another parallel to ballet. The need to warm up, overuse injures, technique problems, longer you work injured the longer it takes to heal. Muscle memory. It helps me to draw the parallels because then I can see the importance.</p>
<p>Imperialzeppelin,
We live in New york. My daughter is right now ar SUNY Fredonia Band and Woodwind camp but, I think she needs the competition and to heve people be better than her.</p>
<p>Clarinetmom,</p>
<p>I can highly recommend the BUTI program, which was probably the single largest experience that convinced my daughter that she had to be a performance major. Eight of the ten students in her section the year she attended wound up going on to top programs like Curtis, Juilliard, Rice, Oberlin and so forth, so the level of playing and the competition for spots is at a fairly high level. Now is indeed a little early to work on next summer’s application, but they open up the audition signups and post the applicable excerpts pretty early in the fall. You can find more information about them at [Boston</a> University College of Fine Arts](<a href=“http://www.bu.edu/cfa/music/tanglewood/]Boston”>http://www.bu.edu/cfa/music/tanglewood/)</p>