Do you have to be an expert on college admissions to be accepted?

College Search & Lists
1

<p>My S was a senior last year and he is going to college this Fall. He and I work well together, and so we agreed that he would tell me what he wanted, and I would take care of the college application process. Some people are going to say that it was his job, not mine, but I really didn’t see how knowing all about college admissions was going to help him in life. He did his stuff like high school and EC’s, and I did mine. It worked out.</p>

<p>My question is: Does anyone know of any anyone who got into a top college without studying the admissions process like it was a science course? Is it possible for a top student with stellar EC’s to just naively fill out the application and get accepted to HYPSM or even lesser schools, or does everyone have to become an expert on admissions 101? Is knowing about the admissions process more important than being a legacy or URM or both?</p>

<p>(Due to the nature of this question, current juniors can’t answer it unless they are talking about somebody else.)</p>

2

<p>Just curious, where will you son be attending?</p>

3

<p>Emory. His SAT’s were around the 50% mark for Emory during RD as a non-URM and non-legacy. I personally feel that my letting him know what he needed to do, and the way that information was presented helped a lot. Of course, we discussed the essay, and he wrote the essay, and he did the EC’s. I’m just curious if anyone can get into a “decent” school with little or no knowledge of how the game is played.</p>

4

<p>I had absolutely no clue, and neither did my parents or gc. Least of all my gc, actually, she was more of a roadblock than anything. I did not go through high school with thoughts of college applications in the back of my mind, I got involved with things I wanted to be involved in, and took challenging classes, but only the ones I wanted to take. My school doesn’t even offer APs, so there was no issue there. I got a lot of college mail and advise from random people, and visited a lot of colleges the summer before my senior year. I think it was just luck that the colleges I applied to were such good schools, because I hadn’t heard of most of them before I began the college search. I knew they were good, but I didn’t know they were the top few LACs in the country. I had no idea what my chances were. I just filled out the application honestly, wrote a couple good essays and picked one to revise, found a couple teachers who like me to write recs, and sent it all off. I had to have a principal write the counselor recommendation since my counselor was–not unwilling, but a horrible writer, mainly. Also, she thought I should go to the state u “to be close to my mom” Note: my parents are divorced, and I live with my dad.
Result: I was accepted to Amherst, Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Colgate, Bowdoin, Oberlin, and Reed, plus two state schools, and rejected at Harvard.
So, it worked out fine. Of course, there are plenty of things I would have done differently if I had known better, but I am more than happy with my college choice (Amherst). I wonder if maybe the admission people can tell when the students do it themselves, and take that into account? Actually, I found applying for financial aid to be much more difficult and confusing than the admission applications.</p>

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<p>I had no clue about the “game” associated with college admissions. I did not even discover this site until after I had been accepted. I just filled out applications, wrote essays, requested my counselor to complete his section and asked for teacher recommendations–not knowing about the “game”. I attended no workshops nor did I speak with any “experts”. I think I did pretty well :). I was accepted to Duke, Brown, Emory and Johns Hopkins with minimal stress in comparison to many CCers. I suppose being naive paid off in my case.</p>

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<p>That is very encouraging so far. It makes the process look more fair. However, what were your chances. I’m not asking for stats, but just an indication that you were not URM’s or legacies or National Merit Scholarship winners or had 1600 on your SAT.</p>

7

<p>I think I played college admissions as a game right from the beginning. I knew exactly how to sell myself to the admissions people and to tell them what they wanted to hear. My recs were very specific to different parts of me and I set them up strategically to not leave any part of me unexplained. I played the admissions game more than others and in the end that help me get into my schools of choice. I did not recieve help from any counselors but I did extensive research on my own. I was able to see exactly what I needed to do to get in and than I just crossed my fingers. I ended up being accepted to Stanford, Yale, Duke, Dartmouth, Brown, Georgetown, Northwestern, and Cornell among others. I dont think I would have been as successful if I didnt know college admissions so well</p>

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<p>At a cost of over $40,000 per year , I felt it was in my best interest to know what exactly I was letting D get into. While she picked the schools that she was interested in, I did a lot of researh regarding graduation rates, professional school placement rate (since she was interested in pre-med) being an AA diversity was very important no only from a numbers perspective but also as part of the culture of the school. I did want to know if the schools did a good job of embracing studnets of color. </p>

<p>There were specific things that she was looking for in the college process: she wanted a small shool with a focus on undergraduate education with none to very few classes taught by TA’s, and extensive study abroad program and school with strong alumni ties and a place that students are there because they want to be there not because of the name. For years she had thoughts of HYP and Columbia in her head but after spending time on each of the campuses, she was not feeling them so they got eliminated.</p>

<p>I did read the common data sheets for every school she applied to so I knew how she stacked up against the pool of admitted candidates. It was important to knwo the average amount of debt students graduated with and to look past the numbers because almost every student who applies to a selective school has the numbers to get in as SAT scores, and GPA only gets you over the first rung of the hurdle. What I have found that people put too much stock in the numbers and don’t think about the fact that the schools are building classes based on the institutional mission which changes from year to year. Fit was very important that if accepted would she be happy and she applied to schools fromt he mindset that if it were the only school she was admitted to that she would be happy to attend. In the end daughter applied to 7 schools and was accepted at all 7 (Dartmouth, Amherst, Williams, Bryn Mawr, Barnard. Tufts and Mount Holyoke) Finishing forst year at Darmouth and is very happy.</p>

9

<p>Be comforted. Most people don’t know much about admissions. CC can make you think all applicants to selective schools have been studying this stuff since they were in fifth grade and known they wanted to go to Yale when they were 3, but in reality, it just isn’t the case. Most people think, well here goes, we’ll see what happens. You don’t have to “game the system” and i’m sure most people here would have gotten accepted to where they were accepted regardless.</p>

10

<p>Hello,
I am currently a high School Junior and was intriged by this thread. What aexactly do you guys mean as the college admissions as a “game”? I knew that there are certain things a person can do to really shine and catch the colleges eye but I’m not sure what you guys are really getting at. Do you think It’s even worth it for me at this late in the game to bother researching about all this?</p>

11

<p>The college admissions is a game. Actually more like a reality show called SURVIVOR. From all the posts I have read, stanmaster22 seems to have gotten the edge upon all the other posters(the ones with morals). However, I do think that stanmaster played the game well, and in the end, he ended with superior results-and more or less the winner of the game.</p>

12

<p>When we started with my S neither of us knew what an SAT was, ok maybe a vague notion but you get the gist. We learned it all on our own and my S did great, had great options. This site was found near the end of the process but helped a lot in the choice-thank you Carolyn!!! With my D it was a lot easier as we knew how things worked.</p>

13

<p>I think you need to know the principles of college admissions to have a good chance of acceptance.</p>

<p>For example, my friend thinks he’s going to get into Stanford because he plays golf <–which he labels as a “leadership” position because he plays for the Auckland champs (which is like… nothing), and because he takes Cambridge courses (B average). He’s only applying to Stanford because “Tiger woods went to stanford… so they like people that play golf. golfers are hard to find in america because it’s not very popular there. So they will surely accept me!” LOL. And I have no intentions of correcting him…</p>

<p>If I hadn’t known about this site, my ec would still only be varsity soccer with a C average. I thought (start of last year): 1400-1500 (old SAT) = entrance to upenn, jhu, duke.
1500-1600 = entrance to HYPS.</p>

<p>Thank god for CC!</p>

14

<p>Obviously you can make it into a “game” or but I really do not think that is necessary or that it even really has a major impact on the outcome. First of all the ADComs are not stupid and they can smell a hype. Also we don’t know if stanmaster22 would not have gotten in if he did not try to max the system. Given the schools he got into, he must have had very strong credentials and likely would kave gotten into most if not all of them anyway. My S is going to Brandeis in the fall and his stats were in fact mid-range for the accepted students there. He simply did a very straight-forward application, wrote what I felt was an interesting personable essay and got letters of rec from obvious sources who knew him and would write a decent letter. One letter was actually from a teacher who who may have not written the strongest possible letter. He had strong EC’s and got into several schools including URoch, Tulane. But it does make sense to try to put your best foot forward so getting appropriately strong recs and writting a strong, unique essay will only help your chances.</p>

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<p>Yes.
It helps if they are from somewhere outside the NE corridor or CA, because that explains some of their naivete with the process, and provides geographic diversity. It helps if their high school provides a good profile to put the student’s record into context at their school, and the school in context of those of the other applicants.</p>

<p>But, yes, people with no knowledge, and many people with no or minimal “gaming” are accepted. That is, people who are top students, and have stellar ECs. The “knowledge” is most important in the selection of schools to apply to - knowing how stiff the competition is, and what your chances really are and how to respond to those chances - strong safeties, apply to several matches that fit your profile, don’t fall in love with any school.</p>

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<p>"but I really didn’t see how knowing all about college admissions was going to help him in life. "</p>

<p>Actually, the same things that help with college admissions – knowing how to package yourself so that colleges can see how you fulfill their needs, knowing how to get a good recommendation, knowing how to do well in interviews and write cover letters and essays that highlight one’s strengths – are the same things that help one get ahead in life when it comes to applying to graduate schools, getting jobs, getting offices in civic and other organizations.</p>

<p>It’s very important for everyone to understand that getting in to grad school, getting a desired job, etc. aren’t things that occur because of luck, but because of research, skills, planning and presentation. It’s aways important to know as much as possible about the organization, its needs and mission before applying for a job or other opportunity. It’s also important to write one’s application in a way that shows how one fits the organization’s needs. Writing every application the same way, going into interviews without knowing anything about an organization, etc. are all things that doom people to failure.</p>

<p>The sooner young people learn these things, the better. </p>

<p>When it comes to colleges, certainly one needn’t be an expert on college admissions to gain acceptances, including to top colleges. It is important, though, to do a thorough job and to have either common sense or other knowledge about how to best do an application. </p>

<p>For some students, to learn this information requires reading college guides and sites like this. For others, it’s common sense – possibly due to their being brought up in a family that was knowledgeable about how people get hired for executive jobs. The same kind of principles hold for those kind of applications as hold for applications to top colleges.</p>

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<p>As Northstarmom points out, some people know the ropes because its just informally learned in their family, others may need guides to the process. But I think an informed approach is better than the alternative in far too many cases in which people make ill-informed decisions. </p>

<p>How many times have we seen people post that so-and-so (teacher, counselor, student) says they’re a “shoo-in” for an Ivy because they have a 1500 SAT? How many kids are fixated on the household-name colleges rather than taking the time to explore the college landscape and decide what’s actually a good fit?</p>

<p>Some people buy a car without much consideration but because its trendy or catches their eye. I wouldn’t buy a car without knowing something about the reputation of the brands and models out there, and I’d take a test drive before spending $30K. For a college education that can cost 4x this or more and is much more important than a set of wheels, I think the degree of due diligence should be even higher.</p>

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<p>Saying that college admissions is a game is no worse than calling life a game. As some people have said, understanding how it works (and that you have to understand how it works) is important to any activity such as getting into grad school, getting promoted at work, or getting married. People who recognize that fact will be successful more often than people who don’t. I remember reading once that if you ask CEO’s how they became successful, they will answer that they did it by hard work. That may even believe that in order to make themselves feel good, but that obviously isn’t the whole story.</p>

<p>The basic rules of the admissions game are: Take AP/IB courses, get good grades, and score well on the SAT’s. After that the EC’s, essay, and recommendations make the difference. Your EC’s should show “passion” in one or two areas. Describe your “passion” in an essay, and the EC’s should support it. Also, you need to understand the different types of colleges and research and select the ones that you want to apply to. </p>

<p>Some secondary rules are: You need to know the difference between ED, EA, Rolling Admissions and RD. Know that applying ED will give you a big advantage, but that you shouldn’t do it if you need financial aid. You need to understand Financial Aid. Know how to use the 50% SAT ranges to judge the difference between safety/matches/reaches depending on whether you are ED, URM, legacy, athletic or etc. Know how to improve SAT scores, and whether SAT II’s are required for you. Know to take enrichment programs over the summer. Know how to write the essay.</p>

<p>Some misc rules are: Some colleges care about how much interest you show and track it by your social security number. If your father is a MD, then describe him as a healthcare worker. Don’t write your essay on your vacation to Rome with mommy and daddy. Some ultra high schools have many applicants to the same schools and they can’t take them all. Know that interviews (admissions/alumni) don’t count that much, but you have to take them to demonstrate interest. Know the way class rank is handled especially if your school doesn’t rank.</p>

<p>Looking back, there isn’t that much to know, but it takes time to learn it. </p>

<p>Everyone is playing the game even if they don’t recognize it. Of course, sheer randomness is going to mean that some people are going to do well with less preparation. Also, a URM from North Dakota with a 1480 SAT is going to do okay. I’m not implying that you have to know everything, but there is a fair amount of research just to get the basics. I just wonder if anyone able to research everything would have any time for high school or EC’s. It doesn’t seem reasonable for adults to expect high schoolers to do all of this. Think about how many parents who went to Harvard thirty years ago would be auto-denys in today’s market. As is often said, the process is insane.</p>

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<p>“Know that interviews (admissions/alumni) don’t count that much, but you have to take them to demonstrate interest.”</p>

<p>I think that with such an overabundance of outstanding students applying to top colleges, interviews count far more than many people think. From what I’ve seen as an Ivy alum interviewer, excellent interviews will not cause a candidate to get in if the candidate is relatively ordinary (Keep in mind that for schools like Ivies, an ordinary applicant would be what most colleges would call an outstanding applicant). </p>

<p>Bad or mediocre interviews, however, can keep out a candidate who is being seriously considered by adcoms. “Mediocre” includes candidates who may be so burned out after applying to 20 colleges, that once they get to their 21st interview, they are just going through the motions. If that 21st college happens to be their first choice, they may have shot themselves in the foot. </p>

<p>Having a bad interview can mean having appalingly horrendous manners (such as the student who sat there with snot literally dripping into his mouth throughout the interview) or being caught in lies or misrepresentations during the interview.</p>

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<p>Modify my previous statement to say that there are two kinds of interviews, those given by volunteer alumni and those given at the school by admission officers. Most schools do not require interviews; but if interviews are recommended, you should take one or it will show a lack of interest. These colleges will waive the interview without hurting your chances if you live far away from the college and they can not find a volunteer alumni interviewer in your area. Most of the college guides say that interviews are informational and not evaluative. You should check with specific colleges to see how they treat interview results. The college guides provide a lot of tips on interviewing. If these tips don’t matter so much now (considering how much other stuff is happening), they will be useful for when you apply for a job. Showing up drunk is a no-no. All I know is what I read in the guides.</p>

<p>That wasn’t really addressing my point. :)</p>