Do your kids' teachers love neediness?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>This is one of my red-hot-button issues.</p>

<p>OP TheGFG has articulated an education problem which has been the single biggest source of school-related turmoil in my family since my daughter started kindergarten in 1995.</p>

<p>I am an “older” parent, now in my mid-fifties. I grew up in a region of the country where people are friendly but not emotionally demonstrative, adults and children establish and respect personal boundaries, parents teach their children the difference between private and public conduct, and parents expect teachers to teach–not “parent”–children and teens.</p>

<p>When I was growing up, almost all of my teachers were consummate professionals. They knew that their job was to teach, their students’ job was to learn, and their students’ parents’ job was to parent. From K-12, I encountered only two teachers who engaged in the sort of “I think you are broken and it is my right to fix you” teacher misconduct described by the OP. When I was growing up, teachers of that sort were considered unprofessional, and were not tolerated in my public school district. The few (and long-tenured) teachers of that sort who somehow managed to hold onto their jobs were a source of derisive gossip among students. (We referred to one such arrogant and personally intrusive prima donna as The Village Idiot–a nickname that teacher inadvertently hung upon himself/herself one day during a fit of narcissistic “true colors” rage in response to one class period’s students’ stoic refusal to publicly disclose intimate details of their personal/family lives.)</p>

<p>As a college undergraduate, I encountered several such instructors. They were the ones who dressed like hippies (or like pseudo-hippies), invited/demanded students to address them by their first name, encouraged students to “hang out” and “rap” with them about personal matters, and always proclaimed, “My door is always open.” Those instructors were instantly pegged as the power-hungry autocrats they were, and we savvy students steered clear of them. By the time I was a graduate student, instructors acknowledged their students’ adulthood; graduate students and instructors–even those doing research together–maintained strict personal boundaries.</p>

<p>My daughter’s K-12 experience (in a region of the country distant from the region where I grew up) has been vastly different from mine, with respect to teacher conduct and professionalism. Today’s classrooms have become overrun by a new and emboldened breed of yesterday’s Village Idiots. </p>

<p>Like the OP’s children, my daughter is well-adjusted, self-confident, normal, and sane. Like the OP’s children, my daughter has never been “broken” and has never needed “fixing” by her teachers (or by any other school personnel). My daughter has expected her teachers to be teachers; she has not “needed” her teachers to be surrogate parents, social workers, or psychological counselors. Unlike my K-12 teachers, many of my daughter’s K-12 teachers have exhibited misconduct reinforcing one or more of the knee-jerk conservative/bleeding-heart liberal junk-social science-fueled viewpoints that all children are “at-risk,” that all parents are inept, and that schools exist not for the purpose of teaching children, but for the purpose of “curing” them.</p>

<p>If I were to detail every incidence of outrageously intrusive, inappropriate, and unprofessional (but ostensibly “well-intentioned”) teacher misconduct reported to me by my daughter over the years, I could write pages. This manipulative and often intimidating teacher misconduct has resulted in my daughter becoming even more guarded with those teachers, which has motivated them to become even more insistent upon opening up my daughter’s head and tinkering with what’s inside. I am non-violent, but some of my daughter’s just-got-home-from-school reports of teacher intrusiveness have angered me to the point where I have bellowed, thrown objects, pounded walls, kicked and punched furniture, and even vomited with rage. After cooling down, I have addressed such teacher misconduct with memos stating (in a polite way), “You are not my daughter’s parent, so stop messing with her head, and stay the **** out of her private life.”</p>

<p>I have the utmost respect for the teaching profession, but I expect teachers to be professionals, and I know that I am one of many parents who hold this expectation. Emotionally needy teachers who need their students to “need” them are unprofessional. They are emotional dictators and psychological predators who should not be allowed to wield authority over easily manipulated and intimidated children and teens. Such teachers should either resign or be fired.</p>

22

<p>Oh so true. Crying, histrionics, and emotions get through to people, and it annoys me to no end because not only am I not very emotional, I respect myself too much to give a cheap crying show just to get ahead. Lots of people will do that, though. Lots. And teachers eat it up.</p>

23

<p>My son and I visited a high school he was thinking about attending.
The guidance counselor/tour guide kept saying, “We’re just like a family
here.” </p>

<p>After about 20 minutes of this my son pulls me aside and whispered,
“Mom, can I talk to you outside?” We stepped outside, and he said, “Let’s
just go.” </p>

<p>I said, “Just go? You don’t want to finish the tour?”</p>

<p>He said, “Mom, I HAVE a family. I want to go to school where they
are interested in teaching.”</p>

24

<p>“And teachers eat it up.”</p>

<p>^^ A huge, and inaccurate, generalization.</p>

<p>(Read my post.)</p>

25

<p>Hmm. I come from a family of educators. I wish I could say I was one myself. I consider myself a relatively young 44 but based solely upon my experience and observations it seems our society and the needs of our students have changed so much since I was in high school. Epiphany, you are 100% correct in your observation- “It’s about your value & effectiveness as an agent of growth/health.” It’s not about a teacher’s need to be needed; it’s about fostering the growth of a child no matter what the child’s needs are. </p>

<p>I do think it’s possible to have a relationship between a teacher and student that is familial yet maintains the professional boundaries of teacher/student. My D has known her Calc instructor for 10 years - he is one of a very few teachers she will approach for advice or ask about programs, courses or universities. I regularly talk and consult with him about D, almost as if he’s a member of our family. And after 10 years, I feel like he is. And he’s that way with students he hasn’t known as long. He wants his students to be successful. Their success as independent, self-sufficient young men and women is his success. I would hate to think that would ever change because someone thought his behavior was intrusive or he was “eating it up”.</p>

26

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<p>It is certainly a huge generalization, but just from experience I have not met more than one or two teachers who did not let emotions play a huge part in their decisions. And I’ve had a lot of different teachers. Maybe my experience is singular and unique. From this thread it appears not. Maybe all these teachers are horrible. But that’s been my experience.</p>

27

<p>There are other ways to get to know your teachers well. Extracurricular activities is one way, but I have also found many high school teachers who are more than willing to have a discussion with you during lunch, before school, after school, etc. in their room on any academic subject. I know groups of kids who go during lunch to just have debates with some teachers or bounce ideas off of them. These aren’t personal discussions, they are academic, but can also show teachers a side of you that they may not see as much in the classroom. I find most teachers I know value mature reasoning over emotional outbursts. I do know at least two of my teachers quite well, but have never used any sort of emotional ploy or needed to go in for extra help to establish a good working relationship.</p>

28

<p>1of42,
the thread’s title poses a fair question: “Do <em>your</em> teachers love neediness?” The question by its nature invites anecdotal answers. As long as those answers are understood & received anecdotally, no harm (even if the particular answers happen all to be negative).
What I object to is the carrying of the ball across serial football fields, if you will. The posters on this board do not know the universe of teachers. They know only teachers in their limited worlds. I objected to the immature & rather nasty (for example) reply that said “teachers [generally, universally] eat it up.” It’s simply inaccurate, & reveals more about the poster than about teachers that poster has never met.
I see this time & again on CC, both in the Cafe & in the Forum. How would any of you feel if I repeatedly trashed your profession(s), comprehensively: “Nurses…doctors…lawyers…accountants…professors (take your pick) are this, do this,” & did so with ridicule.
It’s unfortunate that many on CC have met unprofessional examples of the teaching profession – those who do not interpret their roles with the professionalism required to perform the job with dignity & as it was intended. I can’t help that. But really, some of you with your snickering, catty tone should be ashamed of yourselves. </p>

<p>I’m pretty disgusted myself with many teachers with whom I share little in common. But every week I meet many fine & excellent teachers as well.</p>

29

<p>TimeCruncher, I’m really interested in some specific details about these teacher intrusions that your D has faced. I agree that narcissists and “power-hungry autocrats” are great descriptions of teachers who cross boundaries. I also agree that some teachers DO love to be overly involved with the needy students. Sometimes the students has carefully developed this needy persona to avoid following the rules & standards of the rest of the class.</p>

<p>My own D describes these students as “suck-ups” and really has not been much bothered by them. I really couldn’t say how successful their tactics have been. But your D seems to have been targeted by teachers intent on intruding. Would you mind sharing some specifics?</p>

30

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<p>I couldn’t agree more, nsm. </p>

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That’s unfortunate. I hope things go better for you.</p>

31

<p>D’s Honors English teacher has them keep a journal as part of their novel units, esp. Catcher in the Rye. She would assign them to write unfavorably about the real people and events in their lives: friends, siblings, teachers, etc. They were given topics like “Write about your best friend’s fatal flaw.”, or “Write about a time when you got in over your head in a situation–similar to when Holden solicited a prostitute”. So often D would say, “Mom, I’m only 15. I run track, I do homework, I go to bed, and only sometimes do I go to the movies or to hang out with friends. I simply don’t have the types of experiences she wants me to write about. And if I did, I certainly wouldn’t reveal them to her.” The lady wanted to know personal, juicy details, and the student wouldn’t get a good grade unless s/he gave that to her. She would comment on D’s papers “Very, very well written, but I found myself wanting more details.” Some kids in D’s class made up risque experiences, but D didn’t feel comfortable doing that.</p>

<p>By the way, this teacher is someone who takes everything personally. If a student is simply lazy or disorganized and thus doesn’t complete an assignment on time, she says “Do you know what that says to me? It says that you don’t care about my class, and you don’t care about me.” Huh???</p>

32

<p>I’m a teacher. I don’t love neediness. I love it when students take responsibility for their own actions (or lack of action) and invest as much in their educations as I do.</p>

<p>Some students do sometimes come to me for advice, especially about college applications, and I’m glad to be able to help them. But the kinds of needy situations described in other posts in this thread would drive me nuts, and I’m afraid, elicit an unsympathetic “grow up and act responsibly” from me. I am not a hand-holder as a teacher or as a parent.</p>

<p>I’m sorry to say the OP could be describing a couple of my colleagues. I was going to say more but decided against it. I’ll just say that we have very different standards of professionalism. Fortunately, they are very much in the minority among our faculty.</p>

33

<p>There is a likeability factor, whether we like it or not, in education.<br>
Having said that, the comment “Do you know what that says to me? It says that you don’t care about my class, and you don’t care about me.” should have ended with “care about my class.” </p>

<p>Coachability is an important part of the teacher/student relationship. As a music teacher, I have plenty of students who come to lesson after lesson, and I know from the get-go that every piece of advice I am giving them is flying out the window. Some student are just not going to do it. But I dish it out anyway. <em>sigh</em> I do not take it personally. 20 years of raising two young men taught me a LONG time ago not to take it personally.</p>

34

<p>To StickerShock: My daughter hasn’t been individually targeted by teachers, because the sort of teacher misconduct to which I have objected has almost always been with regard to manipulative and intrusive “personal disclosure” classroom assignments of the sort described by the OP in Post #31. I have also objected to teacher misconduct based upon a teacher’s inappropriate solicitation of student affection (some teachers see themselves as “gurus”), and a teacher’s borderline (sometimes over-the-line) illegal classroom advocacy of his or her personal beliefs. </p>

<p>I can give you one example of extreme school administrator misconduct which did target my daughter as an individual.</p>

<p>My daughter was attending a public middle school (in a district different from her current public school district) headed by a social activist principal who had been fast-tracked into his/her position by a like-minded superintendent. The principal ruled with an iron fist, and insisted that teachers (many of whom were similarly like-minded) indoctrinate students in his/her personal beliefs, including that of faith-based socialism. Given that my family shared neither the principal’s faith nor his/her socialism, I requested that my daughter be removed from a group project in which students were indoctrinated in and pressured to promote faith-based socialism as the “best” basis for human society. The principal heard me out and “amiably” agreed to assign my daughter to an alternative project. Several weeks later, hours before the group project was to be showcased to parents and the public, my daughter phoned me from school reporting that she had just met with a CPS investigator who was going to phone me from the school. The investigator phoned and told me that she was investigating a recent report that my daughter was “dirty, disheveled, unkempt, and uncared-for.” The investigator stated that she had reported to the school prepared to take my daughter into custody, but after meeting with my daughter “for less than thirty seconds,” realized that the complaint made to CPS had been “baseless” (slanderous). The investigator stated that she was prohibited from identifying the “mandated reporter” who had made the baseless complaint; however, after I explained about the principal, and about my daughter’s reassignment from the faith-based socialism group project, the caseworker grimly stated, “I will not allow CPS to be used in that manner. I am closing your daughter’s file immediately. There is nothing to investigate.” After hanging up the phone, did I bellow, throw objects, pound walls, kick and punch furniture, and vomit with rage? You betcha. </p>

<p>To curmudgeon: Fortunately for my daughter (and for me), the last time she was subjected to extreme teacher misconduct was more than three years ago, when she was still attending her previous public school district. I normally deal with life’s negatives without overreacting, but when a school teacher–someone I am inclined to trust and respect–emotionally exploits or psychologically abuses my daughter, I become enraged. Still, I am the sort of person who will bellow (and vomit) in the privacy of my own home, throw my own objects, pound my own walls, and punch and kick my own furniture, rather than charge down to my daughter’s school (or anywhere else for that matter) in a rage and throw a public fit. (I know that such conduct would not only destroy my credibility, but might also get me arrested!) So, I have always dealt with extreme teacher misconduct by first letting loose (usually just verbally) at home, and then later sitting down and writing the teacher a cold-as-ice memo which only the most doltish teacher would fail to interpret as the first in a potential series of employment-endangering complaints. Each of my daughter’s personal boundary-overstepping teachers has always stepped back after receiving one of my memos.</p>

35

<p>epiphany: That’s valid. My generalization may indeed be incorrect, but it has been my experience. Not to impugn teachers everywhere - of all flaws I think teachers could have, over-responsiveness to emotion is not a particularly bad one. I just think it’s common.</p>

36

<p>^and I take it (by responses on this thread) too common, 1of42. That is indeed unfortunate for students & for the profession alike, but understand that such an emphasis lies partly at the feet of teaching programs who must be graduating inappropriately oriented candidates, and secondarily at the feet of principals not screening for a professional <em>manner</em>, on top of professional training and a “pure” (nonemotional) commitment to education as the priority.</p>

<p>No quality teaching program emphasizes emotion over substance. Teaching is not parenting or social work (or as I have said often, on other threads, psychiatry). Perhaps the multi-level, mis-assigned “helping” roles now being directed toward teachers (often because local or state governments are too cheap to provide separate social services, frankly, & sometimes because parents choose to “use” the educational system inappropriately for clinical reasons) is partly at the heart of this. Secondarily there is too much of an emphasis on “touchy-feely” in general, in education, which certainly does not help promote & sustain the “distance” that is more effective from a teacher’s perspective.</p>

37

<p>I agree. I think teachers are increasingly being put in the role of social worker and pseudo-psychologist in schools. Not that this is inappropriate - I actually think that integrated supportive care for at-risk students in schools is an excellent idea, because school defines much of their lives and so is inherently more relevant - but teachers are not being trained for it, given the support needed for it, or even met with the acknowledgment that it is an increasing, implicit responsibility. Given that, it is probably natural that many respond by going slightly overboard on the psycho-therapeutic emotional side of things, sometimes to the detriment of kids who really don’t need it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, everyone here should be cognizant of the fact that by virtue of where we are communicating (a forum for largely high-achieving, secure and well-adjusted students and their very “together” and dedicated parents) we all would probably tend towards needing less help and wanting it less anyways. Imagine this debate taking place on a forum dedicated to children having problems in schools - learning difficulties, adjustment problems, etc. - I would bet the responses could be very different. Tough line to walk for the teachers.</p>

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<p>I don’t think he should have been so rash, especially if the phrase was actually “we’re just like a family here”, which is more like an expression (if a trite and bland one) than anything else. If a school is like a family, all its teachers care enough about their students to provide just as much help or extra support as the student desires, whether emotional or intellectual or extracurricular. What’s so bad about that?</p>

39

<p>“teachers are not being trained for it, given the support needed for it, or even met with the acknowledgment that it is an increasing, implicit responsibility.”</p>

<p>I respectfully disagree that it should be an implicit, let alone explicit (which it often is, in my State) responsibility. At-risk students (clinically at risk – whether that be psychiatrically, socially, or criminally) belong in facilities that serve those needs. Now, students with psychiatric conditions that do not adjust well to group situations, still need to be educated. Same for other varieties of at-risk situations which are similarly disruptive. That’s why there need to be Special Needs Magnet Schools which feature in-house psychiatric, social service, etc. staff, so that such students can be both clinically treated and educated. I am not a licensed psychiatrist, psychologist, or social worker. Nor have I graduated from a police academy. Pretending to perform those roles is unethical, illegal, and ineffective. Students who cannot be effectively mainstreamed should not be, period. Doesn’t work for them, doesn’t work for their classmates, doesn’t work for the teacher, and is an all-around major rip-off for every taxpayer.</p>

<p>I’ve mentioned before that I once taught in a school which included one special class for Developmentally Disabled (combo of trainable & educable). It worked perfectly. The rest of the school respected those students beautifully. It lent a special kind of humility to the school. We became a model for the district. The same thing could happen for other kinds of extreme situations, dsabilities – of which there are too many in regular classrooms now (PTSD, Aspergers, Autism, Tourettes, many other varieties of situations causing dysfunction & requiring one-on-one & small group).</p>

40

<p>Wow…I have friends who teach at elementary schools where they have to take the kids shoes and socks home at night so the kids will have them again in the morning. Unfortunately the CC parent is not the norm out there in public schools. If some students “need” more from the teachers or pretend to need more, so be it. We can’t presume what that students home life is like.<br>
Why not just raise our own kids to be as strong as we can and let others do their own thing? If parents are continually pointing out the “unfairness” of teachers giving certain kids more attention or the flaws in the adults in our kids lives what is the message we are giving them?<br>
Blast away…I know I am the lone voice here.</p>