Does "bad neighborhood" mean "black neighborhood?"

Parent Cafe
81

<p>At the UCs and CalStates however, race isn’t considered during the admissions process so even though some of the UCs are very selective, there’s no admit plus or minus based on a person’s race. There are some other schools around that don’t consider race as well but obviously many do.</p>

<p>OTOH, just because someone is an URM and was accepted doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been accepted despite their URM status. To be certain that race isn’t a factor, one can always just not check the race box on the app.</p>

82

<p>On the general topic of minorities and inmigrants, I just ran into the most outrageous Opinion Piece at the Yale Daily News by a student Class of 2010, Xiaochen Su. Is this thing for real??</p>

<p>“U.S. cannibalizes self by enabling immigrants, poor”</p>

<p>"Statistics show that majority of U.S. population growth comes from immigration and high birth rate among the minorities, while the native Caucasian population is stabilizing. Notwithstanding exceptions, larger numbers of minorities are ill-educated, have less desirable jobs, and thus are less capable to financially sustain their livelihoods.</p>

<p>In fact, many more minorities depend on government welfare and low-income assistance than whites. Over time, jobs that require less skill will continue to decrease, being outsourced to developing countries with lower labor costs, and the percentage of minorities in the U.S. population will increase, forcing the government to spend much more to evade riots by poor, hungry, unemployed minorities. In the future, growth in spending on welfare programs for the growing impoverished population will plunge the government into further debt and force it to cut back on other budgets such as education. Population growth can hurt America by financially crippling the people and the government in the future.</p>

<p>Outrageous or what??!! Here is the link:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/21713[/url]”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/21713&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

83

<p>

</p>

<p>Last year, Harlem was an excellent neighborhood for my S and two unrelated female cotenants (one white, one Asian) sharing an apartment on 125th St. near Nicholas. All the things that make a neighborhood great were functioning for them. They lived steps away from an express subway stop that connected them everywhere in the city, including to Times Square in l0 minutes flat. There were people up and about all day and night, so it was never desolate. Shopping was plentiful, a combination of single business and national chains. An office complex several blocks away had Bill Clinton and staff as tenants. There were shows in walking distance at the Apollo Theater, walking history tours, jazz clubs, restaurants. They could afford the rent and live decently as 3 new college graduates. Inside they had a beautiful apartment with lots of woodwork; outside kinda plain Jane. Nobody would ever be afraid if they had the protection of a line of African women who sat outside their store on chairs in front of their doorway. </p>

<p>When the year’s lease was up for my S and his two female co-tenants, both of the women resituated themselves in nearby apartments, they enjoyed it that much. My S and his girlfriend looked all over the city to live closer to her job, until they concluded her place in Morningside Heights (2 blocks from Columbia U) was the best deal in town and a terrific neighborhood for a young working couple.
WHen I think of all the GUFF these 4 young people took because they lived in a predominantly black area, I’m sad because it truly puts a damper on one’s good will, but they tried not to let it get them down. </p>

<p>There was a discussion I recall from last year about “where exactly does Harlem begin?” Some would say 120th, some 125th, but finally I heard it said rather ironically, "Wherever the black neighborhood begins, that’s where Harlem begins. So obviously it’s a state of mind more than a precise location.
So much so that, last year when some movie director (wish I could recall who-- of national reputation… ) was making a movie about Harlem in the l970s when it was dangerous, he wanted to film scenes of life in poverty on
rough 115th Street of the l970s. But when he actually went to 115th St, it looked “too good” and he had to go some 15-20 blocks northward to find the poverty look he needed for the film. Even then it was hard to find places that had the authentic, totally distressed look in every corner of the scene…just too much renovation going on all over Harlem to tell the worst possible story.</p>

<p>So, something I used to be afraid of is now among my favorite areas of NYC.
Go figure. </p>

<p>I imagine that there are similar tales to be told all around U of Chicago, Case Western (downtown Cleveland), UPenn. But it helps to have some personal experience rather than just view an area with a quick lens. WHen people look for colleges, they don’t spend lots of time dissecting the neighborhood like this; they just rush through quickly on the way to the Admissions Department, so they can’t get a nuanced impression. I didn’t know any of this 2 years ago, and if you’d asked me then I’d probably figure that Columbia U has a problem of surrounding neighborhood. Today I know that statement is absolutely WRONG.</p>

84

<p>If percent of students living off-campus means anything as to how safe students feel in their surroundings, 40% of U of C kids live off-campus. I wonder what the numbers are for similarly urban schools.</p>

85

<p>3tuitions - </p>

<p>It’s not just that applicant families rush through the uni’s surrounding neighborhood on the way to admissions. </p>

<p>Often, the uni’s tour guids fan the flames by unintended uninformed and insensitive comments. When D tourded Case and Trinity, guides referred to the surrounding communities as “bad” and “ghettos.” D’s friends have complained of similar comments at UPenn and UChicago (I know of no such reports from Columbia - - b/c none of D’s friends ever toured).</p>

86

<p>I’m a black woman, and there are parts of our city, and the neighboring one that are known to be dangerous. They also happen to have a large concentration of POOR blacks. Middle and Upper Class blacks know to avoid these areas because they are drug infested and crime ridden. No one (white, black, rich or poor) would refer to them as anything other than “bad”. A lot of good people also happen to be trapped in these neighborhoods, because they can’t afford to live elsewhere. A “bad neighborhood”, one that is dominated by gangs, drugs, and violence, is invariably a POOR one, whatever the skin color of its inhabitants. Approximately a quarter of the 12% black population in the U.S. lives in poverty. A large percentage of this population also reside in urban areas, where crime is rampant. The other 75% of the AfAm population falls on an economic continuum, from poor (but above the Gov. definition of “Poverty”), to middle class, to upper middle class to wealthy. Within the black population, as within any other, the wealthier you are, the less likely you are to live in a high crime area. There are predominantly black populations in many metropolitan and suburban settings that are as safe as any majority white area with a similar economic demographic (some parts of Atlanta spring immediately to mind). Bad neighborhood almost always equals impoverished neighborhood. Race may or may not also be a factor. But as the saying goes, correlation is not causation.</p>

<p>Simba, the Pastor arrives by helicopter? Yikes! Now there’s a congregation I’d never join!</p>

87

<p>Apologies for getting on the subject of AA, but in response to your post barrons…
Please, prove your last post. No sarcasm intended, but please prove it. Because even if you could provide some evidence of that, that would not mean blacks are in any way “advantaged.” What seems to be the problem is that when an attempt to level the playing field is made, people get irrational ideas in their heads. Is AA the perfect cure-all, probably not? But to suggest that blacks are in any way “advantaged” is inexcusable. Check the history of this country and of the subjugation of people of color throughout this world, then tell me because of a few numbers are blacks advantaged in the college admissions process. </p>

<p>And Clarence Thomas doesn’t support AA because of the racists clowns who will never accept that he made it where he is without it. Soon, we’ll be accused of getting preferential treatment in every field where an effort is made to offset years of discrimination.</p>

88

<p>Clarence Thomas has proven to be eloquent enough expressing his views and the reasons why he doesn’t support Affirmative Action. Let’s not trivialize his arguments now, please.</p>

89

<p>And Clarence Thomas doesn’t support AA because of the racists clowns who will never accept that he made it where he is without it.</p>

<p>You don’t say.</p>

<p><a href=“http://actingwhite.blogspot.com/2007/10/acting-white-justice-clarence-thomas.html[/url]”>http://actingwhite.blogspot.com/2007/10/acting-white-justice-clarence-thomas.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

90

<p>I grew up in a “bad” neighborhood in one of the most racially segregated cities in America. There were a number of poor, dilapidated, and crime riddled neighborhoods occupied by one segregated racial group or another. However, I must say that none were considered more nortorious, unsafe, nor villified as much as the ones occupied by Blacks. </p>

<p>Though I’m sure the definition varies from one person to another, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, whether subconciously or not, that most people in this country view any neigborhood predominantly occupied by Blacks as substantially less safe than an equivalent one where there are none. Thus, when one thinks of the most unsafe neighborhoods it is virtually impossible to avoid the association of race along with that thought, whether spoken or not. </p>

<p>Despite being able to intellectually understand the components of a “bad” neighborhood exclusive of its racial composition, most of us are culturally and emotionally conditioned to expect the vast majority of them to be predominantly Black or Hispanic. And unfortunately, there are so many representative communities of this nature, especially in urban areas, that such conditioning is pretty much self-perpetuating.</p>

91

<p>Can certainly respect that FLVDAD. But, for people to say such and such university is in a bad neighborhood just because it’s predominantly black, particulary when they haven’t been there is ignorant, is it not?</p>

<p>Furthermore, when you’re in conversation and you hear someone refer to a predominantly black neighborhood as “bad,” but you know it doesn’t warrant that classification, what do you say? I hope you say something in defense of that neighborhood, because by letting people get away with making careless, thoughtless remarks like that, you are just allowing that ill-conceived stereotype to continue to exist.</p>

92

<p>Dat, I definitely agree that it is not uncommon for people to judge an entire community based on some very superficial impressions with race often being chief among them. It is not fair, nor is it right. But ultimately people whose due diligence is limited to the skin color found in the surrounding neighborhood do the greatest disservice to themselves - missing out on a great academic opportunity due to their own unfounded social bias. Others, as you know, are looking for excuses anyway because they are not confident they will be admitted to begin with — it is just easier to claim the surrounding area is unsafe (e.g. the student rejects the school before the school rejects the student). </p>

<p>When I am in the company of others who I think are trashing a community I know to be decent, I always try to get the basis for their opinion. Usually its something anecdotal, or just hearsay. Then I ask, “so you really don’t have any firsthand experiences there, correct?” Doesn’t take them long to see where I’m about to go with the conversation at that point. </p>

<p>However, as discussed here somewhat, the historical reputation of some communities is much more powerful than reality sometimes. There’s a neighborhood I’m familiar with that became famous during the riots in the 1960’s. Ever since there’s been all kinds stories about how awful and dangerous it is. Today there are $700k homes block after block there, but some people still raise their windows, check their door locks, and say things like “you better not get caught over there”. They are still stuck in the past, and that is likely where they’ll remain.</p>

93

<p>FLVDAD
Awesome post, and much agreed upon.</p>

94

<p>People who are “afraid” in the Columbia/Morningside Hts area really should not send their kids to urban schools. That is a lovely, gentrified, safe area of Manhattan, all the way to 125th Street, which is several blocks beyond the perimeter of Columbia. If that area seems “bad”, those kids are better off going to school in suburban or more rural areas.</p>

95

<p>Many years ago, I heard this description of MIT’s neighborhood:</p>

<p>“MIT has the perfect location. On one side, there’s a slum for the students to live in, and on the other side, there’s an industrial park for the professors to consult in.”</p>

<p>The former “slum” is now expensive housing and the students are pretty much all in dorms, and the industrial park has been refurbished and looks pretty good.</p>

<p>FWIW, I agree with the poster who said that “bad neighborhood” is more a socio-economic distinction than a race distinction. Here on Seattle’s eastside, the “bad neighborhood” is dominated by recent Russian immigrants.</p>

96

<p>I live in an ethnically diverse part of town. It’s sharply segregated, and you can literally see where the “Vietnamese side” and “black side” stop and end, but nonetheless it’s most definitely the minority part of town. I have <em>never</em> felt unsafe in my neighborhood or felt that it’s a bad neighborhood. Heck, my high school was 57% black, 26% white, and 12% Hispanic. Slightly more than half of the students were poor enough to be eligible for free lunch. </p>

<p>On the other hand, I won’t deny that my college is in a bad neighborhood. It’s not because the neighborhood is black or poor. In fact, it’s more diverse than my own neighborhood. Rather, it’s simply because it’s unsafe. Students have been mugged, held at gunpoint and knifepoint, and raped; there was even a case of a man kicking down a door to rob an occupied apartment. THAT is what makes it a “bad neighborhood.” </p>

<p>

In the middle of the vicious Jian Li thread a while back, I emailed Berkeley and got exactly that information. </p>

<p>Ethnicity CR+Math SAT of Applicants, Admits, and Enrollees (Respectively)</p>

<p>American Indian/Alaska Native 1140-1340 1180-1410 1040-1340</p>

<p>Chinese/Chinese-American 1190-1420 1320-1480 1280-1460
East Indian/Pakistani 1180-1400 1320-1470 1280-1450
Japanese/Japanese-American 1210-1390 1320-1450 1280-1430
Korean/Korean-American 1220-1410 1340-1500 1310-1460
Filipino/Filipino-American 1070-1280 1180-1380 1160-1350
Pacific Islander 1070-1290 1220-1380 1120-1340
Vietnamese 1060-1290 1170-1380 1140-1350
Other Asian 1080-1380 1200-1460 1120-1420
Asian Subtotal 1150-1390 1280-1470 1250-1440</p>

<p>African-American/Black 945-1210 1050-1290 990-1210</p>

<p>Mexican/Mexican-American/Chicano 960-1220 1050-1285 990-1240
Other Spanish-American/Latino 1050-1290 1150-1380 1110-1320
Hispanic Subtotal 980-1240 1070-1320 1030-1270</p>

<p>White/Caucasian 1210-1390 1300-1460 1250-1440</p>

<p>Other 1080-1340 1220-1440 1150-1410</p>

97

<p>First, a side note for Datadude; Clarence Thomas was CLEARLY a beneficiary of racial Affirmative-Action, bestowed upon him by the College of the Holy Cross, his alma mater. The particulars of his matriculation was discussed in detail during his judicial candidacy years ago.</p>

<p>As for perceptions of Black neighborhoods, the secret is out. Whites and other non-Blacks are discovering that stereotypes, as well as the fearful and the small-minded, have deceived them. Harlem is quite desireable for white Columbia students and for young white families these days. Why? Because where else can you find a 4-floor brownstone (or a fine apartment) for less than $1 million in the heart of Manhattan (O.K., not FAR FROM the heart)? With ATMs, Starbucks and Old Navy a only few blocks away. As for Cascade Heights in Atlanta, I laughed at the ‘60 Minutes’ report when the new white neighbor told his successful but curious Black fellow residents why he chose to move to their area; “Why should I pay for an overpriced house on the Northside when I can live in a great neighborhood here? I like to save money too!” </p>

<p>As the sardonic sportswriter Pete Vescey once said of the U of Mississippi basketball team upon the its entrance into the NCAA championship tournament for the first time in 30 years; “ah, they discovered the glory of integration.” Finally. 'nuff said.</p>

98

<p>That’s OK LakeWashington, blacks need AA to get into good colleges, because white students are just smarter and more capable. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070527/4ucla.htm[/url]”>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070527/4ucla.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This is an example of why colleges have to make any different arrangements to get blacks to their schools. Does this make black students advantaged or the recipients of an attempt to make for historical disadvantages? Plus, look at the % of black students at these schools (I tried to ge the % at black students at Berkeley and wouldn’t you know, the data wasn’t available.</p>

99

<p>I often wish that colleges and unis would simply publish one clear, user-friendly page on their website called Affirmative Action, somewhere near the Admissions buttons. Publish the logical Supreme Court arguments that explain it. Do not only admissions stats but exit stats and resulting achievements lifelong that might never had come except for this policy that might actually handicap someone with a point difference of up to 200 points.</p>

<p>Emphasize how it was reinforced recently at UMich law school when an appeal was overturned. Let kids and parents become better informed why this entire system is in place. Perhaps then there might be fewer grudges and hostilities among students who interact at the campus level, which is what sent Datdude onto this thread. And it appears others’ grudges are following him right onto this thread, too. Just can’t let it quit. Every bedraggled white student who got a rejection letter is just sure it was because of AA. Statistics on an entire class shouldn’t turn a white guy sitting next to a black guy to think, “Aha, HE’s the one who’s keeping my cousin out, and it’s guys like him who got me that rejection from a school on my list last year…” That’s too stupid. </p>

<p>I’ve always understood AA to mean that if two people have equal qualifications, the minority is favored. Since SAT’s aren’t the ONLY qualifcations by any means, it seems specious to show them and say AHA! See that 200 point difference! So many other factors go into an admission decision, as we all know. A host of other factors are available to be seen in the student’s file, including the very important, “did he take best advantage of the resources around him?” If his school offered no AP’s, for example, he had less chance to learn rigorous writing skills in the classroom that would spill over onto the SAT CR and Writing scores. His teacher recommendations are something that only the Adcom, not the kid sitting next to him in Econ, will ever see.
Etc. </p>

<p>Connecting the two topics of the thread, let’s say (I have no proof) that a generation of rectifying the injustices have produced more college-graduates among URM’s who are taking their place in middle and upperclass professional life. They can afford good housing. As parents, they’ll have the luxury to work homework with their kids and not chase 3 jobs each evening, etc. so their kids will do better in school with more ease than they had experienced growing up. That has GOT to be good for our country, as a whole, and could manifest itself right into the look of neighborhoods in 20 years where we wouldn’t assume so mightily what it means to say your street address is in
a majority black neighborhood. </p>

<p>When I was growing up in Baltimore (1960’s) there WAS no middle-class Black community to speak of. That has changed enormously, and not just in Baltimore.
What is good for our entire country should be something college kids learn to consider, not just their own personal stories.</p>

100

<p>datdude:</p>

<p>The UCs publish their Common Data Sets (Report B2) which report race/ethnicity.</p>

<p><a href=“http://cds.berkeley.edu/pdfs/PDF%20wBOOKMARKS%2006-07.pdf[/url]”>http://cds.berkeley.edu/pdfs/PDF%20wBOOKMARKS%2006-07.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;