Does "bad neighborhood" mean "black neighborhood?"

Parent Cafe
161

<p>But I would say when it comes to the general area, people are either too rich or too poor.
that pretty much sounds like what cities have devolved to.
When we moved to the city- we lived in a neighborhood that was blue collar- now the same homes that are 1000 sq ft and 100 years old that were affordable for a blue collar family 25 years ago, are being snapped up by people who can afford a house that costs $600K on a 5000 sq ft lot.
Low income housing is available with a wait list in some areas, but we no longer are planning on retiring here, we can’t afford it.
Middle income people just can’t afford to live in the cities anymore.</p>

<p>BUt I have a question, since 7 years ago according to the census, Chicago was 58 %- not Caucasian- are whites just glued to the lakeshore or something if they don’t interact with the “minority” residents? :confused:</p>

162

<p>My impression is that over the last 15 years in Chicago the number of whites has been steady, African-Americans slightly down, and Hispanics (mostly Mexican) and Asians, way up.
Some African-Americans do well economically and move to the suburbs, others move to close-in and poor suburbs like Harvey as the result of tearing down public housing and tearing down buildings in poorer parts of the city.
There are fewer working class whites and more white 20 somethings and people moving to new high-rises downtown.
There are more and more Mexican neighborhoods, generally with high rates of home ownership, replacing working class and ethnic whites.
The Wall Street Journal had an article in the last week about mortgages given to illegal immigrants. These have a very low default rate.</p>

163

<ol>
<li><p>Re the University of Chicago, a minor correction: Doubtless higherlead et al. meant to be discussing the area WEST of the campus, where the Garfield el stops are. That is separated from the campus by a pretty large park, so it doesn’t feel cheek-by-jowl at all. And lots of students do travel that direction at night . . . mainly on the bus, to get to the Garfield el stops. East of the campus, you have the wealthiest areas of Hyde Park (with many UChicago buildings salted here and there), the Museum of Science and Industry, and Lake Michigan. That’s the admissions-brochure Hyde Park.</p></li>
<li><p>Police who do not live in an area are often surprisingly poorly informed about its character. A few months ago, I spent a day walking the streets in the West Philadelphia neighborhood where I used to live, southwest of Penn, with a private detective who had recently retired from the Philadelphia police force after 25+ years. He was certain that we were going to be in constant danger. I assured him that, no, for the most part we were going to be spending our time in a vibrant, safe community. As we walked around, he kept saying “I had no idea it was this nice here. This isn’t what I expected at all.”</p></li>
</ol>

164

<p>hyakku: “Generally, when people say bad neighborhood they are referring to black or hispanic neighborhoods. This is generally because black and hispanic people generally comprise more of the lower socioeconomic classes, thus, more crime, thus worse areas. People try to play it off like no, but in reality yes it is, and until people are willing to admit it, nothing will be done…So yes, people are generally referring to black/spanish neighborhoods when they refer to ghettos and all, and the white equivalent would be something like a stereotypical trailer park. Sad but true.”</p>

<p>Not necessarily. I am a Caucasian person, & I don’t feel that way. The creepiest neighborhood I ever lived in was in NYC. Across the street from my apartment, pretty much 24 hours a day, was this group of thugs (all Caucasian). People were terrified of them. That was a “bad neighborhood”.</p>

<p>I would be thrilled to live in a very ethnic community of any variety (especially one which is not in my background) for the culture, the food, and the ambiance. I love that in the NY metro area you can still do that. Very, very cool.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I am sure that there are some people out there who associate certain ethnicities with crime. I am optimistic - things are headed in the right direction and I believe that soon even the very ignorant will open their minds.</p>

165

<p>vicariousparent: “I sense a “Bad” or “Unsafe” neighborhood when I see a lot of youth loitering around the streets, especially if they are behaving in a ‘rowdy’ manner. While unfortunately it is true that most such neighborhoods have a high proportion of blacks, not all ‘black’ neighborhoods are like that.”</p>

<p>I think that since African Americans compose only about 11% or so of the population, it isn’t possible that overall (nationwide) neighborhoods where “the majority of the youth loitering in the streets, behaving in a rowdy manner” “have a high proportion of Blacks”. </p>

<p>There are some serious behavior problems in this generation of youth, and statistically speaking, African American kids do not dominate that show. They are more likely to end up in prison, however. Statistics back me up, but I have seen with my own eyes privileged Caucasian kids get away with substance abuse, truancy, property destruction, etc. as the world bends over backwards to give them another chance. Affluent Caucasian suburbs are filled with kids drinking, smoking pot, and snorting cocaine. So few of them end up in prison. Those are BAD NEIGHBORHOODS - people just don’t see it, because most of the homes are over 4000 square feet.</p>

166

<p>“Affluent Caucasian suburbs are filled with kids drinking, smoking pot, and snorting cocaine. So few of them end up in prison. Those are BAD NEIGHBORHOODS - people just don’t see it, because most of the homes are over 4000 square feet.”</p>

<p>Well, in fairness, despite those problems you are not likely to get mugged in one of those neighborhoods.</p>

167

<p>Muggings are associated with poverty, so it probably is true that in an affluent neighborhood you probably would not be as likely to be mugged. It doesn’t have anything to do with race or ethnicity, however. In poor Caucasian or Asian neighborhoods across the country, the chance of being mugged or robbed or something is pretty high as well. This is not a special thing found only in Hispanic or African American communities.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if you live in an affluent neighborhood, you are more likely to be the victim of theft in your own home (by your own teenager or young adult, stealing your money, to buy booze or drugs). Poor kids can’t steal from their parents as easily. </p>

<p>I am not saying that all affluent kids are bad, just that there are bad neighborhoods everywhere.</p>

168

<p>Id associate muggings with drugs not poverty.
They aren’t grabbing your ipod so they can buy food or shoes for their kids.</p>

<p>Poor people have ethics too (in fact some may be poor because they have stronger ethics than those who don’t care if how they earn money is legal or not) however someone who views his community as easy pickins or feels that they “owe” him, is more likely to commit a crime.</p>

<p>My daughters high school is in a neighborhood where kids get assaulted waiting for the bus or walking home. It isn’t a * poor* neighborhood ( home are assessed in the $400K+ range) but neither would any label it an affluent Caucasian suburb.</p>

<p>My car was broken into when I stepped away for 5 minutes- in the school parking lot while after school activities were occuring. I had noticed someone I didn’t know watching me, but because I didn’t want to jump to conclusions, I decided that he was waiting for a child.</p>

<p>Within the time that it took to go into the school- call the police and then call my banks etc- my debit card had been used to fill the tanks of three cars and international calls had been attempted on my cell phone.
My car wasn’t broken into by someone who was inexperienced. </p>

<p>However- in my neighborhood- with similar home values- I have had my wallet returned to me intact- several times when I have dropped it at the grocery store or on a bus. In fact Sunday, my daughter left her lambskin leather jacket on a bus a block from our house. I thought it was probably gone for good- but someone turned it in and yesterday I picked it up to send to her. Id also point out that our neighborhood is somewhat diverse ethnically- we have lots of immigrants working in the local shipyards and lots of minorities from other areas who are moving in because it is affordable ( to some- not so much to us)</p>

<p>Im not saying crime doesn’t exist in my neighborhood- but the biggest crime I have experienced there is when I see what we have to pay for property taxes. ( I have mentioned however, how my former neighbor had his gun stolen from his house- I just hope it isn’t used in a crime- as several of the people he works with have ended up dead/in prison)</p>

<p>When a neighborhood- tries to crack down on blatant drug deals happening during the day in public and are blasted by a vocal minority in the local minority run paper for trying to attract more “whites” to the area- I can’t help but think " what is wrong with this picture?" :confused:</p>

169

<p>I also should add that I don’t consider the neighborhood to be a * dangerous* neighborhood, I still walk about by myself after late meetings and frequent restaurants in the area with friends, not any more watchful than I would be in any other neighborhood at night. ( D also has lots of friends of all colors- who live in this neighborhood )</p>

<p>However, I am more apprehensive during the day in general, just because of my experience. Ive realized that a lot of crime occurs during the day, just because people are not paying attention.</p>

170

<p>Mugging statistics are probably associated with both poverty and drug use. Of course income level doesn’t have a direct correlation to ethics! The majority of people living in poverty would let their health and lives fall apart before they would take something which does not belong to them. However, when you have families which are not “making it” in this country, there are associated issues. The working poor often have households where there is little supervision for teenagers, for example. How can they be home for their kids if they are struggling to get enough hours to buy food? Also, sometimes people do steal because they are out of money and desperate.</p>

<p>Affluent families can do a very poor job of supervising their teens as well.</p>

<p>There are a lot of drugs in affluent neighborhoods, but not a lot of muggings. Maybe affluent drug users don’t need to steal in order to buy drugs (at least not from people outside of their families - there is usually enough cash in the family to steal).</p>

171

<p>emeraldcitykitty: “When a neighborhood- tries to crack down on blatant drug deals happening during the day in public and are blasted by a vocal minority in the local minority run paper for trying to attract more “whites” to the area- I can’t help but think " what is wrong with this picture?”</p>

<p>What is the scoop on this story? Can you give more information or a link perhaps to a newspaper article? Are people saying that the intentions of the neighborhood, in trying to get rid of drug dealers, is being racist? If the neighborhood is multi-racial and multi-ethnic. why is that happening?</p>

<p>Also, I am thinking that your kids are going to a certain amazing high school in the Central District (just a guess). Separate issue, sort of, but is it still true that while African Americans are in the majority in the school population, hardly any can be found in all of the advanced classes? I am hoping that you will tell me that has changed (I am pretty sure that it used to be the case, and very recently). If it is still like that, what is the school and community doing to improve access to the advanced classes for all kids? Even if your kids don’t go to the school, do you know anything about this? It blows me away that this can happen in the progressive Northwest!</p>

172

<p>I would think that bad =crime index more than type of people in the area. If it was stable, low crime, safe it would not be a bad area. If there is high crime, college students are easy targets.</p>

173

<p>Separate issue, sort of, but is it still true that while African Americans are in the majority in the school population, hardly any can be found in all of the advanced classes?</p>

<p>Well my daughter has been in both remedial and AP classes at the same time, as have several of her friends. They also participate in programs like African American Scholars or College Access Now.
I didn’t realize but she was the only Caucasian female in her remedial math class one year. ( Virtually all other students were Black) The way I found out was, when I came to pick her up early for an appt. some kids outside the classroom asked if I was D2s mom. this startled me, cause I hadn’t met them before-I didn’t realize I stuck out so much! :wink: IMO my daughter is also quite beautiful, certainly gorgeous compared to what I looked like in high school- & I couldn’t get over that these kids said I looked just like her! lol- * if only I could have kept my innocence* :)</p>

<p>Anyway- she has friends who have been in many of her same classes- quite a few are African descent ( since her friends include African Americans, African-Canadians and students who have more recent links to Africa), and they take AP classes as well as regular or honors classes.</p>

<p>The teachers for the most part have been helpful if you ask. A couple in particular have really gone out of their way to help students who don’t necessarily have the APP background, to succeed.</p>

<p>To be blunt- access is for any student who wants to attempt a honors or AP class. You don’t have to have a certain GPA or teacher permission as far as I know.
However, I have heard parents say that they feel the AP classes are way too much work and they don’t want their kids to be that stressed.
Ive tried to convince them, that the classrooms are NOT just full of APP kids, but students who want to work at a level that is challenging. Not ALL the AP teachers go above and beyond at handing out homework.</p>

<p>THe AP classes aren’t just full of Asian and Caucasians, but the more that those rumours persist, the less likely other students are going to try and register. I know that at Open House, when we went around to the classes, most of her friends parents didn’t attend and although the auditorium was packed to overflow with parents, my D tells me “nobody goes to Open House”.
Its true- we were only in the classrooms for about 3 minutes each & that hardly seemed worth it, but I go because there always is at least one or two bits of information that I wouldn’t get anyplace else.</p>

<p>Re the trying to “cleanup” the neighborhood, Seattle has a much smaller police force than other urban cities. To get presence in the neighborhood, you have to complain, go to their community meetings and be vocal. A while back there were a lot of drive bys and shootings in the area- and they also made a lot of arrests - this article shows some of the feelings around those events, and a local paper also had editorials voicing comments similar to
*“Why are the police taking an interest in drug dealers now?” asked Jace, an African-American resident of the Central District and a rapper for Silent Lambs Project. He was sitting at the bar in Hidmo. “These guys have been selling drugs forever—and now the police want to clean up the streets? Why didn’t they clean them up 20 years ago?”</p>

<p>The answer, says Jace, is obvious.</p>

<p>“Because of white people,” he said. “The white people want blacks out of this neighborhood.”</p>

<p>Hari Kondabolu, a local comedian, was also at Hidmo. For him, the e-mail was proof of what the new white settlers in the Central District really desire—nothing less than the total removal of blacks from the area.*
<a href=“http://thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=237684[/url]”>http://thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=237684&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Incidentally, probably jsut like many cities, neighborhoods change, and in the Central district - just like other parts of Seattle gentrification is happening.
B ut that doesn’t necessarily mean that “whites” are moving in and want “blacks” out.
Its more that as city lots become more desirable, people are moving in and fixing up houses & /or paying way more than what they were going for 20 years ago.
B ut that is true for any area of Seattle- our house for instance has appreciated ( according to our taxable value) almost 7 times what we paid for it 20 years ago. and this is with minimal maintainance and certainly no remodeling.</p>

<p>Id also point out, that the Central Area has perhaps more halfway houses etc, than some other neighborhoods. Im not sure what the reasoning is for this, but it prompted the principal to lock all the exterior doors save one, even though students are often going to and from running start, jobs, etc- because it was a problem with people coming into the building who didn’t have any business there.
Ive also read that many of the arrests and troublemakers that actually hangout in the CD, don’t even live there, but come from other areas.
That really ***es me off-it also can make something seem like a race thing when it is a punk thing.
When hooligans want to cause trouble, but they don’t want to do it where * they live they come to Seattle.
That isn’t because they are minority or not- that is because they are A$$holes
:p</p>

<p>However- most times- I find the district very welcoming. Im friendly with several people who are active in the black/Seattle community and perceptions that try and divide the community is just as frustrating for them as it is for me</p>

174

<p>The Central District, as I recall, has some great architecture. I heard that the Seattle TImes, or some magazine. recently pegged it for the next great palce to invest. Thank you for the update, BTW. :)</p>

<p>I am thrilled if those classes are truly open to all. I was speaking to a mom of two kids who went through the high school we are discussing. She was African American, and had been pretty frustrated because she thought most of the kids in the advanced classes were Caucasian or Asian (yet in the school overall, the numbers were quite different). I know there is a really cool program in Seattle called Ranier Scholars which targets gifted students who also happen to be from underrepresented populations. The kids graduate after 6th grade, and are actively recruited by all of the private schools and public school programs. Perhaps that opportunity is helping things out.</p>

<p>I bums me out if the Central District suffers from crime, because it has an AWESOME location and is a really cool place. I bet you will enjoy an even bigger increase on your investment, because I really think it is becoming hot in the real estate market.</p>

175

<p>Ds principal is an energetic, intelligent focused African American man, whose family have been Seattle educators for some time. He is also an alum, which adds an extra dynamic, but I think he is just fantastic at juggling all the different facets of the school. We are really very lucky to have him. :D</p>

<p>This is his 4th year, and the school has gone through various administrations at the superintendent level as well as as principal and some principals may have not have emphasized as much that all students should be encouraged to acheive as high as they feel ready for.</p>

<p>There is a certain “cohort” of students who have gone through the advanced placement program from elementary, middle school and now are there because it is a magnet for APP, even though APP ends after 8th grade.
Those students seems to be higher economic bracket going by FRL at the magnet elementary school, and I wouldn’t be surprised if most are Caucasian or Asian. That may be giving parents of high schoolers the impression that the AP or honors classes excludes students. I hope not. Even though D doesn’t do well on the AP tests, I feel that just having the class taught at that level, better prepares her to go on, as well as more material can be more interesting too, not just more homework.</p>

<p>However I will admit that in some subjects though, her regular level classes have been taught by teachers who for lack of a better word, have a “better personality” and make things more engaging for students, which makes it a better learning environment.
One class in particular for example last year,( Chemistry) I was really worried about, as she had barely reached grade level in math, and it was a very intensive class. But the teacher ( and the student teacher) corresponded with me by email, and follow up meetings and made themselves available to her where she had problems. She really worked hard and she finished with an A.</p>

<p>Part of the ( districts)problem I think is not that schools are discriminating by race, but that with site based management, as our new superintendent is finding out, it is really variable toward what sort of education the students recieve.
With schools where parents are educated and demand certain things, and are able to follow up, student achievement is better.
At schools where the goals aren’t clear, and even where the principal changes every couple years along with the teachers, there might not be anyone who is charting if kids are learning what they are supposed to be learning.
( which is what nclb is supposed to measure)</p>

<p>Where my D was, she didn’t get much out of middle school, so then when she and students like her got to high school, the school either had to work really hard alongside the student to get them caught up, or they assume that the student isn’t capable.
From her middle school experience my D actually thought she was “dumb” because she didn’t learn the way things were being taught.
If kids then have to go to a high school that replicates that kind of experience they are going to lose motivation because they are learning that they are dumb, not that they aren’t being taught in a way that they can access.</p>

<p>I know so many parents who have to reteach curriculum to their kids every evening, so then the kids do great at school. BUt many people ( me included) can’t and don’t do that. I believe in parent involvement, but parents shouldn’t have to hire tutors to help their kids succeed.</p>

<p>Sorry if this is TMI, but I would really hate to see the city continue the way it is going, which seems to be- middle income people can’t afford to live here, the ones that do, don’t have any kids, when they do have kids they move to the suburbs.</p>

176

<p>As the area gentrifies crime will come down as much as the values go up. People who invest in $700,000 homes are going to be criminals nor are they going to tolerate them. The crime is already following the former residents to Tukwila and Renton and Kent.</p>

177

<p>Ah, the seemingly endless debate over “the future” of the Centra Area." Well, there’s lots of history in that situation. Long-time residents, more than a few being middle class, are resentful that after years of neglect, perceived or otherwise, the area now gets attention but not the kind that usually benefits them. Yes, that idea can be a contradiction in terms, but you have to have been there over the years. Many neighborhoods of the CD were beautiful 40 years ago and remained that way because of the pride and determination of the old time African-American residents. Madison Heights, Leschi, Madrona, parts of Mount Baker, for example. These folks are now sitting on properties worth nearly $1 million (maybe more). As you probably know, even Mount Zion Baptist and the African Methodist Espiscopal churches have struggled with the issue, as a lot of their congregants have moved to South King County, while the churches’ pews sit on some of the most valuable realestate in Seattle. Some black folks took (and will take) the money and run. Hats off to them. They didn’t run to escape an infestation of crime. They took the cash (for cheaper housing and bigger lawns, in some cases). What those who stay resent is the attitude of some new residents. Admittedly, it’s all anecdotal and hurting someone’s feelings isn’t a crime. But I’ve experienced first hand the shabby atitude demonstrated by white investors and some newcomers to the CD towards the oldtimers. Visiting an open house some years ago in Lower Leschi, the agent (originally from out-of-state, like eveyone else in Seattle these days, hah!) could barely restrain her gleeful opinion that the neighborhood was a much better place since her investor purchased the property. Hmmm. Really? Since there hadn’t been much turnover on that attractive (and low crime) block at that time, I wondered what she meant. Actually, I didn’t have to wonder too much since I had been quite familiar with Leschi for years as a youngster.</p>

<p>Also, the definite tension, broadly speaking, between white newcomers whom are Gay and non-Gay African-American oldtime residents is clearly evident, if not expressed very loudly in “liberal/progressive” Seattle. Now, I think that this is a regretable situation, that historically victimized communities at times fight one another. But I also share the impression families who’ve lived in the CD since the 1960s that their concerns about their neighborhoods weren’t getting attention from city fathers until a significant population of white and Gay folks moved to the area. And this tension is evident in other metropolitan areas where Gay folks have assertively come to majority Black neighborhoods and voiced complaints, not simply about crime, but about their neighbors’ customs. See the battles in East Atlanta over parishoners’ Sunday parking on crowded side streets. See the very interesting PBS documentary on similar conflict in Columbus, Ohio, where really unfair city ordinances are being asserted against Black homeowners for stuff that is downright minutiae in the logs of municipal grievances. Hanging a inocuous homemade piece of woodwork on your front porch in Columbus can get your house seized by the city and sold at auction. Gay real estate agents freely admitted that the neighborhood was desired by Gay homebuyers (less cost) and that she had no regrets about filling such complaints against “non compliant” homeowners. Middle class Black folks always desire police protection because their lives, more than some others,’ are hindered by crime when it is present. Nevertheless, their fear of neighborhood demographic change is justified at times.</p>

178

<p>“People who invest in $700,000 homes are going to be criminals nor are they going to tolerate them.”</p>

<p>Well, they won’t be violent street criminals, which seems to be what we’re talking about. They’ll still beat their wives, embezzle from their employers, cheat on their taxes, etc.</p>

179

<p>Lake Washington: Whoa - that was a lot of information! I need to reread that and digest it all. Interesting perspective - a lot of what you are saying is new to me. Are there really that many gay people moving into the Central District? I’ll give you something really anecdotal…If we are speaking in generalities, I have to say that gay people, as a group, are among the most kind-hearted and tolerant people I have ever met. It is really hard for me to imagine them, again in very general terms, being bad neighbors. :(</p>

<p>emeraldkity4: What do you think of this idea, since you really know the school and the advanced classes there. What if there was a group of volunteers who organized into a support network for kids who are underrepresented in those top classes? This group could, perhaps, be like those parents who are able to help kids with their work at home or pay for tutors. It could provide encouragement to these kids, and also support to close any preparation gaps which happened at the middle or elementary school levels. It also could guide students toward summer programs and internships targeted towards them. Do you think something like that could work? Has anyone ever done this before?</p>

180

<p>Spidey,</p>

<p>I hope that I was effective in my attempt at not providing “wholesale” criticism of the acts of a few. But as I said, there has been much conflict between some Black homeowners and new white gay residents in old, formerly segregated neighborhoods in the urban core. The Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Constitution wrote about it in her newspaper a few years ago. The conflict in a revitalized East Atlanta became quite nasty at the time (around the year 2002). I guess property values and the perception of them can evoke such passions.</p>

<p>I believe that the PBS documentary about Columbus, Ohio might have been an edition of ‘Frontline.’ </p>

<p>As for the CD, Gay residents (bargain hunters) of nearby areas like Broadway, Capitol Hill and Montlake have migrated to the [used to be] cheaper homes in the heart of the CD. Clearly, going back a generation or two ago, Seattle as a city was very hospitable to Gay folks trying to live an ordinary life (ah, the “rugged individualism” of the west). The understated conflict in the CD is a clash, at the very least, of class and power.</p>