<p>I completely agree with vicariousparent’s post. I could not have stated it better myself.</p>
<p>“Years ago, Harvard’s idea of a ‘well rounded’ student body meant no women and a limited number of Jews.”</p>
<p>Actually, years ago, Harvard was not interested in a well rounded student body. It was very happy to have a school primarily filled by the wealthy elite who were smart enough to get in, and the intelligence requirements years ago were much less than exists today.</p>
<p>vicariousparent puts it well. I have no problem with a poor URM with no privileged background getting in over my son but I have seen too many affluent Hispanics and blacks get in on the racial quota, sorry, let’s call a spade a spade.Northstarmom, you are wrong, years ago, a wealthy Jew could not get in, just a wealthy Presbyterian.</p>
<p>I have more than a gut feeling that if I were Black or Hispanic … I’d be in an Ivy today and holding a fat envelope in my hands instead of a petty one.</p>
<p>electricquiem, yes you would. Marite, I wrote sloppily in the post you cited re extrapolating from HS experience, etc.</p>
<p>Someone else commented, my son got into several ivies, no bias, for pete’s sake. My point, he would have got into all 8 if he were black or Hispanic. That speaks to electric’s point: from my son’s school two kids got into Columbia, my son with SAT of 2350, then a black kid with SAT of 1800.</p>
<p>All the bright white kids were shafted. A Hispanic with 2100 got into MIT, my son was rejected. There was nothing else exceptional about the admits, they had no ECs.</p>
<p>After all that jazz about meritocracy, the top colleges are mostly political in their admissions.</p>
<p>This is the age of the brand-name consumer item. In many ways the Ivy League is a brand name, and the individual colleges that make up the Ivy League, are all aware of their images or their own brand names. While they want to be “well-rounded”, politically-correct, diverse etc. , the truth is they probably would not be as attractive to students if their student bodies were perceived as overwhelmingly Asian and international. This just isn’t the image of an Ivy League college to most people. I think that many Asian and international students would share this perception and the colleges would become less attractive to many of them, as well. Obviously a lot more goes into college selection than just image awareness, but I believe that for better or worse, it is a component.</p>
<p>I noticed that many posters mentioned that Asians are somewhat homogeneous in their interests, and yes, diversity of interest in a college is of utmost importance. </p>
<p>I, however, feel that I have met and exceeded the qualifications of some of the colleges I was rejected and wait-listed at, based on the qualifications of other posters on CC and others I know personally. (I am Asian, by the way.) I have a high SAT score and am valedictorian. But more importantly, I don’t feel that I fit the stereotype. My entire high school career has been focused on international affairs and law. My main essay was about my passion for law. I’ve won writing contests. I am in charge of three orgs.–MUN, Mock Trial, and my school paper. My major is psychology.
My question is, are there also too many female Asian wannabes lawyers/writers out there or have I been lumped into the whole as well?</p>
<p>I also understand that application decisions were also very tough this year for everyone. The thing is, I know there are probably a lot of Asians who are like me–many have diverse interests lying out of the fields of science, math, engineering, whatnot. But seeing non-Asians (not even URMs) with lower qualifications for the same (NON math & science) fields get in instead is, to me, completely without rationale.</p>
<p>^^^ Blueberri89, I don’t think I fit into the stereotypical Asian student mold, either. My main extracurricular activity (of which I was the founding President) was Amnesty International (and one of my essays were also about that). My intended major was International Relations/Philosophy/Religious studies (prioritized that way). Plus, I don’t even think there are that many Bangladeshis at Harvard (or any other ivies, for that matter)!</p>
<p>And I agree with you … it is utterly unfair and without rationale.</p>
<p>“. But more importantly, I don’t feel that I fit the stereotype. My entire high school career has been focused on international affairs and law. My main essay was about my passion for law. I’ve won writing contests. I am in charge of three orgs.–MUN, Mock Trial, and my school paper”</p>
<p>Even before this very competitive year, the people I have seen get into Harvard have tended to have at least state level office/top honors in 2 different ECs. I’ve seen plenty of students with those ECs – plus excellent stats – be turned down.</p>
<p>I have even seen a legacy URM turned down who had that.</p>
<p>The competition is stiff, and no one should assume they are a shoo-in.</p>
<p>“Someone else commented, my son got into several ivies, no bias, for pete’s sake. My point, he would have got into all 8 if he were black or Hispanic. That speaks to electric’s point: from my son’s school two kids got into Columbia, my son with SAT of 2350, then a black kid with SAT of 1800.”</p>
<p>I’ve seen white kids posting on CC who got into Ivies with SATs of 1800. They tended to be white kids who were first gen college and/or came from underrepresented areas.</p>
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<p>As an Educational Counselor at MIT (applicant interviewer), I can vouch for the fact that SAT scores play a relatively small role in admission. Same goes for the number of APs or ECs. If you want to impress the MIT adcoms with your academic achievements, get a 10 or higher on the AIME or be a finalist at the Intel/Siemens competitions. MIT turns down hundreds of 2400 SAT scorers. It just does not tell them much about the applicant, except that they can presumably handle the intensive workload. But there is very little correlation between SAT scores and academic success at MIT. Knowing the material by heart does not help much. MIT specifically looks for certain type of candidates with some demonstrated creative talent, generally in the sciences. Show some published research, file a patent, or even discuss something unique you created in your garage. That will get their interest. Because the vast majority of applicants to MIT have never been seriously challenged academically, the school looks for evidence that students can handle adversity. Once admitted, most students go from being superstars in HS to just average or even below average at MIT. It can be pretty depressing for an entering freshman at MIT with prior classes in multi-variable calculus to get a 50 on an introductory math test when his lowest score in HS was a 99. </p>
<p>I never know the SAT scores of the students I meet, but I can often pick out with a few questions those that have real chance at admission, and my guesses have more often than not been right. MIT knows exactly what it is looking for and generally finds it, even if the process seems confusing. They want a mix of academic talent, creativity, mental toughness and collaborative spirit, characteristics that together will contribute to the school’s mission. You seemed to imply in your prior posts that MIT was in the end not the right fit for your son, even if you felt he was academically qualified. MIT clearly came to the same conclusion, so it should not be a surprise.</p>
<p>My son is currently a freshman at Harvard. I find it interesting that most people assume because he’s black, AA played a major role in his acceptance. His near perfect SAT scores, numerous leadership roles, academic awards, EC’s, music and athletic participation made him an excellent candidate. When you encounter black students on Ivy league campuses, do you automatically assume their stats are less than the norm?</p>
<p>Those who think that nonURMs must all have stellar stats should read this thread in which a poster says that their sister, white, middle class, nonlegacy, nonathlete, Californian, “with 1980 SAT, 14 out of 245 rank, A genuinely nice, down-to-earth girl” got into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Columbia. Rejected from Princeton.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/487056-miracles-do-happen.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/487056-miracles-do-happen.html</a></p>
<p>Northstarmom, the title of the thread says it all. There was obviously something quite unique about this student.
That being said, the truth is that URMs do not need the same stats as non-urms. Everyone knows it and even the schools themselves acknowledge it.</p>
<p>tniasmom07: I do not automatically assume that URMs are unqualified or less than stellar. But I suspect your son was not lacking in financial resources, or family support, nor was he treated unfairly in his high school because of his race. No doubt, he is a valuable addition to Harvard. HOWEVER, be assured that Harvard counts him as a black when it tabulates the racial composition of its student body that gets reported for evaluation with respect to affirmative action. The more people like your son get in, the less strenuous efforts it has to make to locate and recruit the truly underprivileged black students who, while equally brilliant and talented, may not have “near perfect SAT scores, numerous leadership roles, academic awards, EC’s, music and athletic participation”. </p>
<p>The whole logic of affirmative action (at least in my mind) is that the underprivileged minority student simply does not look as attractive on paper and is not as accomplished at the time of application, but is no less talented and worthy of admission. Imagine that you have to choose the best swimmers among a group of ten athletes. You decide to test them by timing how well they swim a distance of 200 yards. Now imagine 8 of those athletes get to swim in the standard swimming pool, but 2 have to swim against a strong current in the river. Unless you make some allowance for the adverse conditions, you will not be able to adequately evaluate those 2 who had to swim in the river. One of them might even be the best swimmer in the bunch, but you just won’t know it if you only look at their stats. It used to be that all black kids were swimming up the river and most white kids were in the swimming pool, and therefore the current ‘race based’ system was effective. Today, thanks in part to social changes and in part to affirmative action, there are a lot of black kids swimming in the same pool as the white kids. If we continue to use a ‘race based’ system, then we are leaving behind those kids who are still swimming in that river, and like it or not, we are also setting up a bias in selection of kids who are swimming in the same pool. </p>
<p>Unfortunately this is a situation that suits the politicians, the universities, and the growing URM elite, so I don’t expect it to change any time soon.</p>
<p>While he evidently didn’t apply to Harvard, an AA male student on this board who received a 2370 posted he was rejected by one of Harvard’s peer schools and MIT.</p>
<p>Intellect is valued highly at the ivies. Even though I wrote a very conservative supplemental essay (anyone know how H ranks in terms of liberal/conservative with respect to the ivies?) it showed my ability to think at a higher level (in addition to my academics), which I think is especially key in this year of ultra-competitive admissions.</p>
<p>Hi piccolojunior, I think that people here are socially liberal, but in some sense, the actions that we take are quite conservative.</p>
<p>vicariousparent:</p>
<p>I seriouly doubt that Harvard uses an AA system as narrowly defined as you portray it. I know that at MIT, the adcoms will take into account any disadvantages the applicant may have had to overcome, be the applicant black, white or Asian. A white kid with few AP opportunities, first generation college applicant, less favorable socio-economic background will be evaluated differently from a kid from a wealthy NY suburb. Same thing for black or Asian applicants. A Bengladeshi applicant whose family struggled economically, will not be evaluated the same way as an Indian applicant from Bengalore whose father got his PhD at Stanford. I would like to give credit to Harvard for using a similar approach and seriously doubt they are just trying to meet some target quota for URMs by filling it with children of wealthy african americans or of ambassadors from African countries.</p>
<p>cellardweller, I agree.</p>
<p>I guess I might as well say something, as I’m looking at it from the perspective of an African-American male. Affirmative Action is often targeted for it’s “reverse discrimination” but the system is hardly so narrow anymore. Colleges are aware of the changing social and political climate that they themselves helped bring to fruition through past policies. Thus, helping the blacks and latinos and Native Americans has given way to the holistic process we have today. When they say they look at every aspect of a person’s profile they possibly can, they are being loyal to their word.</p>
<p>These top-level schools want diversity at all levels. They want Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Indians and Native Americans. They want people who are rich, poor, and middle class. They want students who are from urban areas and rural areas. They want students from the east coast, the west coast, the south, and the mid-west. They want legacies. They want athletes. </p>
<p>In an attempt to fill all of these different desires, they select a few students from a pool of many. Everyone is qualified, but not everyone exactly fits what the college wants or needs. Are there people who get in with lower scores? Yes, but they come in all colors. </p>
<p>Anyway, you have a lot of people left outside who are upset. But the true issue is that the process of college admissions isn’t fair. I’m not talking about diversity procedures, but college admissions in general. No matter how qualified you are, they can still say no, and no matter how much that stings, no matter how qualified you are, that’s the truth. It’s life. All you can do is live it.</p>