<p>newjack I am a forensic psychologist. You don’t understand the Bakke case.</p>
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Sorry you are taking it that way but that’s not what I mean at all. Anyways, I think you are kidding yourself if you don’t think that kids from the Midwest and South don’t receive a “boost” in the name of geographic diversity.</p>
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Sorry but I am certain I am correct in saying that Affirmative Action is about increasing the representation of under-represented groups.</p>
<p>newjack, under-represented racial/ethnic groups, not based on economics, you originally used lower middle class, now you are backing off, disingenuous of you. Anti-discrimination laws on the other hand prohibit discrimination on basis of race, gender, religion, sex, national origin, etc. AA applies to under-represented racial/ethnic groups but a university may deem lower middle class as under-represented in their student body and strive to recruit them, that is not AA. You need to know the subtle difference involved.</p>
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I’m not backing off. Like you said, the lower middle class/working middle class is considered an under-represented group when it comes to college admissions; thus Affirmative Action works in their favor.</p>
<p>“Anyways, I think you are kidding yourself if you don’t think that kids from the Midwest and South don’t receive a “boost” in the name of geographic diversity.”</p>
<p>I may be wasting my breath here, but I think you’re wrong. Harvard took a boatload of people from Exeter (~25) and only 3 or 4 from my high school despite the fact my school was academically stronger. Many of my friends found it easier to get faculty offers at Harvard and other top schools than to be accepted as an undergrad. And they had distinguished themselves in major national competitions–math, science, and the humanities. And it was much easier to get into Caltech than Harvard or princeton–and Caltech does not practice geographic diversity or AA. I know for my alma mater, MIT, the bar was so high for admission from my high school that the majority of us graduated phi beta kappa (top 6%). Undoubtedly, they could have admitted many more that would have been above average there.</p>
<p>There are academic hotspots in the midwest and the south (TAMS for instance) where it is harder to apply. The poster ske mentioned that Harvard enrolled all but like one or two of the NYC math team and NYC didn’t even win the national championship that year. I presume he was talking about ARML because I don’t recall any other national math competitions where regions compete with each other. I knew many people on the Chicago ARML math team who had mediocre results with HYPS admissions (if not being completely shut out) despite the fact that Chicago actually won the ARML nationals. (Actually we were so deep that year our “B” team won.)</p>
<p>Universities like Harvard want their students to experience learning, living, eating, socializing and recreating with other students of all races. That is part of the “education” they are offering. The reason is obvious: We live in a country and world of many races, so they want you to graduate and be able to work for, work with and hire people of all races, as well as socialize with, include and understand every race and culture in your world. It makes you a better person. </p>
<p>If you think you can do this without ever having spent time with any of those people, then you are mostly likely wrong. Don’t overanalyze the reason for AA, i.e., socioeconomic reasons or righting past wrongs. All of the students Harvard admits are qualified to do the work and graduate. The stats prove it.</p>
<p>collegealum314:
The whole geography thing is a pretty complex discussion. You are partially right in your observation. However, a lot of it has more to do with what kind of opportunities an applicant has access to. Schools in Chicago are pretty high caliber and are comparable to the competitive schools you find on the East and West coast, so your friends had that working against them. It really depends on the state and what city or town you are applying from and what caliber schools are in your area. According to various ivy league officers who visited my school there is a bit of the “he’s from Iowa”-factor.</p>
<p>newjack, it is not a question of your backing off but your distinct lack of knowledge of language, terminology and law. I said a college may deem some group under-represented but that’s not affirmative action. Let me clarify for the last time. A college may deem students who have taken ancient languages like Greek or Latin under-represented in their student bodies and for the sake of intellectual diversity or to increase potential scholars in these fields may actively admit larger nos. of these students but this cannot be reported to Dept of Education as AA. Colleges fill out surveys each year to show they have met with federal AA goals. The formula for AA takes into account race (used to take into account females) but not Latinists!</p>
<p>AA is specific to law and has unique expression but the word under-represented is promiscuously used in its street meaning but is incorrect when combined with AA.</p>
<p>ramaswami:
I see what you are saying but I know that Justice Powell specifically mentions seeking geographic diversity as a legitimate goal. Your counter example, which is pretty good, has more to do with logistics than seeking diversity though.</p>
<p>Regents of the University of California v. Bakke
[quote]
In practice, this new definition of diversity has meant that race has been a factor in some admission decisions. When the Committee on Admissions reviews the large middle group of applicants who are “admissible” and deemed capable of doing good work in their courses, the race of an applicant may tip the balance in his favor just as geographic origin or a life spent on a farm may tip the balance in other candidates’ cases. A farm boy from Idaho can bring something to Harvard College that a Bostonian cannot offer. Similarly, a black student can usually bring something that a white person cannot offer. The quality of the educational experience of all the students in Harvard College depends in part on these differences in the background and outlook that students bring with them.<a href=“%5Burl=REGENTS OF the UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, Petitioner, v. Allan BAKKE. | Supreme Court | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute”>/quote</a></p>
<p>newjack, yes, geographical diversity is legit and desirable, as is economic diversity but it is not to be confused with AA. That is, a college can go out and seek lower income students as part of commitment to diversity and part of seeking out under-represented groups but it is not to be called AA. In practice, it turns out the same as AA but the aims of AA are different from the aims of seeking out diverse representation on campus. Hope this helps.</p>
<p>ramaswami:
Affirmative Action is what established seeking diversity as a legitimate goal.</p>
<p>newjack, I see where you are going and to be intellectually honest it dawns on me that I may be mistaken. Universities have a legit interest in seeking diversity to enhance the educational experience and geography and race may be some ways and lower income groups may be another and hence could be justified under an expanded view of AA. I concede this may have been part of the reasoning in Bakke and though I know the broad outlines the details have slipped my mind. Touche, well reasoned.</p>