<p>My D has been accepted into a handful of 4 year architecture programs, none top tier. She hopes to go the 4-2 route to her professional career. Now she has the luxury of deciding which offer to accept. One factor will be … what undergraduate colleges have been accepted by top tier MArch programs.</p>
<p>Where could we find out what schools have been accepted by HYP and the likes without going to each school’s Architecture department?</p>
<p>I do not think you will find any published materials that answer that exact question. I have a daughter studying in a BA pre-architecture major with plans to get a MArch. Personally speaking, I didn’t feel a need to have the question answered that you pose. She looked for the best fit college for her. </p>
<p>The one way you could obtain some information though not an official list or statistics as much, is on visits to these BA architecture departments, talk with faculty and students. I recall on college visits with department heads, they may have mentioned where some of the graduates have gone onto. If you are not visiting, you could email a professor and see what response you get. Informal chatting with students in the major also yields some information. Now that my D is in college (she is a junior), she will mention some recent graduates and where they have ended up, but it wasn’t a factor in her picking the college she attended. She attends Brown University and has mentioned recent grads she knows who have gone onto Harvard and Columbia for their MArch, and others, but I forget. I really do believe it is the student who will get herself into graduate school and not the name of the college she came from.</p>
<p>I don’t know which colleges your D is choosing amongst and that information might help get feedback here from others who might know more about each one. You said “none top tier”. For example, my D’s safety school was Lehigh. I recall the department head talking of recent grads from the arch program going onto Harvard and Penn. If you can talk to anyone who has gone to the schools your D is considering, or mention them here or visit and ask questions, that is your best bet.</p>
<p>However, I would not pick the school based on this factor. So many other factors go into which BA school best fits your daughter. Ya know, Brown doesn’t have the best pre-architecture program compared to some others my D got into, such as Penn. However, this school fit her best and I am not worried as to which school has more grads that got into this or that graduate school. She has sought out opportunties to augment what she can do in her field at Brown and I feel confident she’ll end up some place for grad school, just like many before her, even if her school doesn’t have the best undergrad arch major department.</p>
<p>The good thing with coming from a program that is perceived well by the top-tier grad schools is that they will perceive your undergraduate portfolio in a good light. Graduate school admissions is extremely subjective, and pretexting your portfolio with a good name could help.</p>
<p>Of course, if your work is great it won’t make a difference, and it also won’t make a difference if your work is terrible. However, when you are on the bborderline, it might give your portfolio the little extra it needed to get you in.</p>
<p>JBR, Good question. This is something you need to consider if your D isn’t going to a top tier school like Brown.</p>
<p>MArch I’s are a real money maker for universities in my opinion but in order to get into an Ivy grad school from a lower tier school, she will need to be one of the top students in her class. It’s hard to do when you’re female. Check the female acceptance rate for the school. Email the HYPC grad school adcom in May and ask the general question. What is the acceptance rate for female applicants from non-Ivies? I f they say 30%+ acceptance, you can breathe a sigh of relief. If they say >20%, start looking for a non-Ivy grad school.</p>
<p>Also, JBR, an Ivy MArchI is helpful if she wants to practice in New York City or Asia or the UK–but in the other regions of the US, an Ivy MArch I is not much of a deal maker or breaker. Pick the grad school near to the region where she wants to practice at age 30.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that even an Ivy MArch I (6 semesters of design) is the poor cousin to a good BArch (10 semesters of design) and the village idiot compared to an MArch II (13 semesters of design). It’s a steep curve to come up when you hit the marketplace at 25 and you have to compete against seriously talented and dedicated students who have been living architecture for seven years. M Arch I’s tend to be relegated to project management in design offices. She will have to turn herself into one of the BEST design students in her class in order to rise to meet the BArch competition.</p>
<p>IMOO</p>
<p>Cheers - so the key, for you, about what school or schools to select is really the number of design studios taken in pursuit of the degree? And, of course, the city you wish to live in or near? Is that correct?<br>
My junior daughter, with absolutely no art background since elementary school but with high math & science ability & an interest in art history & photography thinks architecture might be right for her. She has shown some signs over the years of having some level of creativity, but it’s not something she has spent any time developing. Given that scenario, I’m thinking a pre arch program might be better suited to her. Your thoughts?</p>
<p>Yes, the number of design studios is critical to architects who want to design. You wouldn’t think it would take 10 to 13 semesters to learn how to be fascile with basic space, but it does. </p>
<p>However, little previous art interest–that’s a worry BG–unless your D is thinking about heading into project management. You cannot imagine the level of aggressive creative talent in architecture schools. Architecture schools work on a ‘Star’ system (one of my least favorite things about the profession). The ‘stars’ in school are the most creative students with the most fascile drawings and models. If she’s not hugely artistic, your D is going to struggle to feel competitive. That’s true in MArch I and II although the MArch IIs at a top school will be selected for their fascile skills–all the better to make the Grad magazine look hot.</p>
<p>Where do you live? I suggest you try to get your daughter to an architecture school to sit in on some upper level ‘critiques’ so that she can see the ruthless judgements of student creativity. Or check out the AA website–the Archtiectural Association in London. <a href=“http://www.aaschool.ac.uk/[/url]”>http://www.aaschool.ac.uk/</a> See if she can catch one of their juries on their live camera. I saw one being broadcast earlier today.</p>
<p>On another note, architectural photographers make an absolute KILLING. Most of the famous ones are men–but she could try to break into that cash pot, LOL. I don’t think it would be too hard if she was good–she wouldn’t have to lower her prices very much to cut out some competition. :eek:
In that case, she’d want to study architecture history and art and then go on to get a Masters in Photography–preferably at a school with a rockin’ architecture school where she could offer to photograph student’s models and develop her first client base…and then on to an internship with one of the ‘playahs’ in the industry.</p>
<p>Cheers, thank you for the insight & the suggestion to pursue architectural photography. That could be the path for her to take. It is exactly the competition from others who are farther down the road in terms of their artistic talents that concern me for her. She did pursue an interest in Architectural Engineering for a while but decided that was not her cup of tea.
We are in Dallas and will pursue the exposure to a “critiques” as you suggested. I suspect she will need to develop some back bone to handle that too - another concern of mine for her. I will definitely talk to her about the architectural photography idea & see where that takes her.</p>
<p>JBR, I hope to be in a better position to give advice on this subject in a few years. 
Like Soozie, my child is getting a BA (in his case in art studio/history) and plans to get an MArch eventually. He decided not to apply right after getting his undergraduate degree so it may be a few years before we know what worked for him.</p>
<p>He has attended MArch information sessions at two ivy league schools and one of the surprising things that he learned was that the average age of students in their programs is mid-to-late 20’s. Work experience either in the industry or in a related art field is valued. Both schools also put enormous emphasis on the quality of the portfolio – not just content, but presentation.</p>
<p>I would tend to agree with Soozie that a student should choose his/her undergraduate school based on fit – not on likelihood of getting into a professional or graduate program. Kids who well suited to the environment and teaching style of their college/university get the best grades, make the best impression on the professors who will write those recommendations, get the grants and high-profile internships.</p>
<p>BG, If your daughter is in the undecided category, then I wouldn’t advise her to go straight into a 5 year architecture program. The BA + MArch route takes longer (therefore costs more) but still I think it’s a reasonable choice for an 18 year old who may turn and turn again between now and careerhood. Many colleges offer “So you want to be an architect?” summer programs which can really help focus (or obliterate) interest. She should also take an art class either senior year or in the summer to make sure that this is something she enjoys. </p>
<p>There are many schools that have strong art history/art studio departments. These are neither architecture nor pre-architecture programs per se though they offer architecture studio and history courses. At schools with well developed art history and studio departments students can explore art and architecture from different perspectives. For example, my son took a large format photography class from a talented architecture photographer and also a Writing About Architecture course from a highly regarded critic. Though both of these adjuncts appealed greatly, at the end of the day, he is still most intensely drawn the creative side of architecture. So we’ll see where this leads. . .</p>
<p>Oh gosh, well that’s the other thing.</p>
<p>This morning I was on the jobsite and I noticed that the bloody SOAGs had chipped 5 or 6 concrete beams. On the front. Down low where they will be visible. Grrrrrrrr.</p>
<p>I have to go toe to toe with big burly sweaty construction men to get them to skim coat the entire beam so that when they paint it, I will never see that chip. It has to be done to struct engineering specs. That’s just one example but architecture is a high conflict business. Those who are have no problems with high conflict make better architects and builders. In fact, I look for GCs with a temper that is just simmering beneath a polished exterior. Their craftsmen work to a higher standard. I want to see a craftsman who will get annoyed if his work isn’t perfect. My building will be better for his frustration and perfectionism. </p>
<p>She’ll need massive cojones, (it takes guts to put up big buildings in the middle of people’s communities. You’d be surprised how many architects don’t have the guts in the end), massive confidence, good communication skills, an ability to collarborate with lots of aggressive men, a bit of a fiery perfectionist temper, an easy sense of humour, a good perspective (the building will get built), a teflon personality that doesn’t absorb vicious criticism, an ability to be daring–these are the qualities that make a good architect-- along with creative talent and artistic flair. </p>
<p>Buy a copy of Architecture Record and check out the photographers–get some back copies at the library and study those photos.</p>
<p>Have fun with the research!</p>
<p>Momrath - “There are many schools that have strong art history/art studio departments.” Care to share school names?</p>
<p>Cheers - will follow your suggestion to check out Architecture Record.</p>
<p>D is really trying to find a study path that combines her superior talent in the areas of math & science and her new found love of art history, particularly architectural history. She probably would be a great engineering student but she hasn’t “found” an engineering major that excites her yet. Plus she fears the nerdiness of engineering majors. Doesn’t mind being a nerd herself, just doesn’t want to be totally surrounded by nerds The photography interest is new in the past two years. I love that she keeps developing her interests and am excited to see where this path takes her. She has a great work ethic & is developing the ability to stand up for herself. She’s not opposed to taking art lessons this summer so we are pursuing that.
Again, any & all suggestions are more than welcome.</p>
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<p>This was my son’s short list for excellent art history + studio: Williams, Wesleyan, Brown, Yale, Conn College, Skidmore, Kenyon, Hamilton. I’d add to that Vassar and, for females, Smith. My understanding is that these schools are also very strong in sciences, though only a handful offer engineering.</p>
<p>Obviously my son focused on small LACs with a couple of mid-sized ivies thrown in for stress :). There are also many fine programs in both art history and studio at large universities. UMich (my almamater) and Carnegie Melon come to mind, but this isn’t an area that he pursued.</p>
<p>My son has still not 100% decided to go forward with an architecture degree. He’s interned at museums throughout his college years and the analytic art history route may edge out the creative. </p>
<p>Williams is one of the best in the art history field with a sub-specialty of architectural history so he’s been exposed to some fine thinking in that area. Topnotch sciences as well and a dual major of science and art history is quite common.</p>
<p>BG…I’m going to chime in and also agree with a lot of what Momrath has mentioned. Cheers is an architect and so she knows way more about architecture than moi. However, I am a parent of a daughter that sounds a little like your D. She opted to apply to BA programs, not BArch programs. Her main reasons were that she really was not ready to commit at age 17 to a BArch program/major as it is not a field she had studied yet enough to know for certain that she wanted to major in it even though she was very interested in this possibility. Also, a BArch program is a specialized curriculum, sorta like engineering, where a big chunk of your coursework is lined up for you, with not a lot of choices and not as much liberal arts. She really wanted to be able to study many things as an undergraduate and not be that specialized from the get go. She visited Cornell (a fine BArch program) and then decided against going for a BArch. The BA approach was more suited to her for now and if she did end up wanting to go into architecture, she’d get a MArch. She chose to apply to BA schools that offered an Architecture major (some would refer to this as “pre-architecture”) and wanted the option to do that major as she was leaning that way and so made sure to narrow her list of colleges to ones that offered such a major. Early on, she considered engineering, but in her first college visits in fall of junior year, including visiting both engineering and arch departments, she realized that architecture fit more what she wanted. She likes the interdisciplinary nature of the subject. Like your D, she has always been very strong in math and science but didn’t want to go into those subjects individually career wise. She also has been someone into creativity and the arts, problem solving, and computers. She also likes history and other cultures. Architecture involves all these areas. </p>
<p>Our high school has no courses to do with Architecture (I have learned there are some high schools that do, however). Besides math and science courses, and of course history…my D did take four art classes in high school though I never thought of her as an artist and she didn’t know she’d be going into architecture til later. Actually, one of the classes was photography. Back in middle school, she did a technology camp for girls that actually introduced her to design on computers…I guess it was AutoCad and related things. I recall she enjoyed that. It was in our state. </p>
<p>As she began to think about possible college majors during junior year of HS, she opted to do a full year independent study under the supervision of a teacher at school (your D could consider doing this next year perhaps) and it helped her to explore this field a bit. She learned mechanical drawing and drafting, floor plans, and AutoCad. The summer after junior year, she knew she had a few weeks she’d be home (she was abroad for a big chunk of summer) and she sent out letters to several local architects asking if they’d take her on as an intern. She did an internship with a local female architect who gave her real architectural work to do such as floor plans, building models, drafting, measurements, and AutoCad. She again liked it and so she solidified her choice to apply to BA schools with this major with the intent of likely doing that major but no commitment was necessary in a BA school. </p>
<p>She is now a junior at Brown. She is concentrating in Architectural Studies. She is so happy she chose the BA route and is getting a liberal arts foundation, along with concentrated study in all aspects of architecture. She has supplemented her studies at Brown with a summer arch intensive she paid for herself the summer after freshman year at Harvard Graduate School of Design. It was very intensive with design studio and a real taste of this field and a professional degree program. She was certain she would go on in this field and eventually go to grad school to get an MArch degree. She also has taken courses in architecture at RISD. She also did a semester abroad in Florence through Syracuse’s architecture program. She is currently applying for internships at architectural firms for summer. She has done enough to not only gain skills and knowledge, but to be sure she wants to commit to this field/career and graduate school. At 17, she was leaning, but could not be certain and ready to commit. Further, she believes her liberal arts education contributes to the kind of architect she will be, as well as person. She is happy for the path she chose. </p>
<p>So, if your D sounds somewhat similar, and I surely don’t know her college criteria or qualifications, but will share the list of schools my D applied to that all offered a BA in architecture program:
Brown (where she attends)
Yale
Princeton
Penn
Tufts
Smith
Conn College
Lehigh</p>
<p>I share this as one experience in deciding on a path in this field and what it has entailed. It sounds like this is the path that your D may wish to explore.</p>
<p>I really appreciate all the input. D is really not interested, for a variety of reasons, in an Ivy League type of school. She’s looking for the State Univ sort of environment. The big thing that concerns me for her right now is the lack of any art instruction. All the other pieces are there in terms of brain power & interest. She is beginning to talk to practicing architects & hopefully, we’ll find suitable basic art instruction for her this summer. She has lots to think about.
She’s the 3rd & last child. The older two were much more sure of what they wanted to study when they looked at schools. At that didn’t change for them. It’s easier when they are sure of their direction :-)</p>
<p>BG…I have one child who was sure of her direction and one who wasn’t (in high school). I don’t think one way is better than the other, simply different. Actually, the most popular college major for entering freshmen is “undecided”! I think it helps to have SOME direction but I don’t think a seventeen year old needs to already know their career path. Part of college can be exploring to figure that out. That said, my kid who wasn’t ready to commit to a professional degree program when applying to colleges, did have some direction given the exploration she had done in high school and thinking of how her interests would dovetail into a possible career field. She wanted to explore more in college to be certain and thus a BA path allows a student to do that. However, she already had an interest in architecture and so made sure in selecting colleges, to find ones that offered that as a major in a liberal arts context. </p>
<p>I have another kid who could have told you her career path back in nursery school and it has never wavered. However, the difference is that she fully explored and experienced her field every year of her life and so she KNEW that was her life. But not all fields are like that. Many fields, like architecture, are not subjects one studies growing up before college. Thus, making a commitment might be tougher. My other kid experienced her field so deeply that it was her life and there was no “discovering what I want to go into” about it. We knew for years what she would want to go to college for and so she was ready to commit to a professional degree program where her field is a huge chunk of her coursework and her program is a terminal degree. She is in a BFA degree program in Musical Theater. That is an area she was able to experience for years enough to know it was in her blood. </p>
<p>Each path has made sense for each kid. I don’t think a teen has to know what they want to do with their life. But some exploration, discovery, and direction, will at least help them to apply to colleges that offer the fields and options they are leaning toward. In some subjects, teens will have studied them for years. But that is not so much the case with architecture, unless a high school offers courses in it. </p>
<p>It is my feeling that your D is best suited for the BA path based on what you have said so far. In fact, a BArch path (sorta like a BFA for my other kid) is best suited to someone who is CERTAIN what they want to do. Further, someone who is a junior in high school by this point who wants to seek a BArch degree program, would have had to start prepping for it…portfolio development, and so on. I think your D would be wise to do the exploratory stuff such as art courses, independent studies, shadowing architects, an internship, etc. I forgot to mention that my D who went into architecture chose in high school to write several papers on arch related topics for certain classes. So, there are ways for your D to start actively exploring this field now. She need not make a commitment to a BArch program, but she could at least figure out if architecture is a field of study which she may wish to do in college and pick colleges that offer a BA program in the field, whereas not all colleges do. Colleges that offered a major in architecture was one factor that helped my daughter narrow her college list (amongst other personal college criteria).</p>
<p>BG, I concur with Soozie’s comments. A lot of kids (and their parents) stress over not being able to identify a career path like doctor, lawyer, Indian chief, in fact, it’s quite normal to be undecided and that’s a beauty of a liberal arts education; it encourages an evolutionary process that develops with experimentation.</p>
<p>Art History is a fascinating field that many high schoolers have little exposure to. Many large universities have excellent art history departments, especially those with access to good museum collections. Good luck and let us know how her interests develop.</p>
<p>lol - Im not stressed over her not having a clear path at this point. It was just easier to narrow the college choices for the other two because they did have one. I’m quite proud of her and support her 100%. She’s more than willing to look a lots of schools as she explores what might be the best fit for her at this time in her life. My stress is more about her choosing something she can enjoy and feel some level of successful with. That having been said, I’m not really even stressing about that because I know she’ll find the right answer for herself - whatever that is. I do agree that most 17/18 year olds don’t have a clear path at that age - I certainly didn’t!</p>
<p>So a good thing to do would be to narrow colleges down to those who have the option to study architecture at the BA level, should she decide to possibly explore that in college. It would be there for her if she goes in that direction which appears to be one possibility at this juncture. If the school has Art History and studio arts, that would also keep those courses available to her should she take the architecture road. </p>
<p>It wasn’t that hard for my D to narrow the colleges down as she had a list of criteria and ONE was that the school offered an architecture major (pre architecture), among other things to do with size, location, availability of her extracurricular interests including a ski team and other things. If you plug “architecture major” into the criteria, the list narrows. Further, a school with a strong liberal arts foundation will give her many options. Once in college, she’ll discover or solidify her direction and may possibly decide to attend graduate school for professional training that is specialized.</p>
<p>My son never mentioned the word architecture until he was a senior in HS, so he has no portfolio to speak of at this point. His freshman architecture courses though are absolutely his favorites. His latest project was to build a chair out of cardboard that will support the weight of a person. It is the one class that forces him to think out of the box (pun intended).</p>
<p>This exposure as a freshman has certainly furthered his interest in the program. They do have both a B.Arch & M.Arch program though, so we have several years to see how this works out.</p>