I’ve been reading a lot of different articles and opinions regarding choosing colleges for undergraduate degrees. There are good arguments on both sides but 1 common sentiment seems to prevail…yes, unless you are going on to graduate school. Then not so much. So what’s your take?
Just for comparisons I’ll give you some options to compare and decide.
Student A is a top HS student but chooses to attend UCF(ranked 173) for undergraduate degree. Excels at UCF and moves on to Harvard for graduate degree.
Student B is a top HS student and chooses Vanderbilt(ranked 16) for undergraduate degree. Excels at Vanderbilt and moves on to Harvard for graduate degree.
Student C is a top HS student and chooses UCF to attend for undergraduate degree. Elects not to go for graduate degree.
Student D is a top HS student and chooses Vanderbilt to attend for undergraduate degree. Elects not to go for graduate degree…
I know there are other factors and degrees that have to be considered including majors etc…but what is your take on the importance of college choice for an undergraduate degree based on moving on to a top graduate or not?
Re students A and B: Let’s presume those Harvard degrees are from professional schools (Law, HBS, others), not the graduate school. If so, that Harvard MBA, JD, etc. will certainly become A’s and B’s primary education credential – and they will potentially be quite potent. What A may lack, in comparison to B, are some lifelong networking contacts initiated during undergraduate school. However, even that isn’t overwhelming clearcut; for example, if A and B are Wall Street Harvard MBAs, B may have an advantage, whereas if A and B are Tampa Harvard JDs, perhaps A may have a slight “local edge” (who knows?). Finally – and I am sure others will not concur – all things being equal, B has a somewhat better chance to attend Harvard than A does (I do NOT suggest that A, from UCF, is precluded from Harvard, only that B will have some advantages not enjoyed by A . . . and, please remember, I said “all things being equal”).
Re students C and D: This comparison is even more problematic. First, let’s presume both become teachers, eventually receive Master’s degrees from some Florida university, and conclude their careers as middle school principals; I can’t imagine UCF versus Vanderbilt would make any major professional difference. Second, on the other hand perhaps C and D want to become consultants at the national level. It’s possible – not guaranteed – that Bain, McKinsey, and their few peer companies recruit at Vanderbilt, but I’d be utterly shocked if they do at UCF. Critically, one can’t get a job if he’s not interviewed. In addition, undeniably some individuals obtain lifelong satisfaction by graduating from a prestigious university; obviously, D may revel in being a Commodore, but C can’t claim such a distinction.
I guarantee you, @Mom2aphysicsgeek, where one attends engineering school can matter a GREAT deal. For example, Lockheed Martin is the nation’s largest employer of degreed engineers, scientists, operations researches, and other technical professionals. We – I spent 22+ years there – simply don’t interview at the overwhelming majority of ABET engineering schools, although every school where we recruit entry-level engineers is ABET accredited. Perhaps it “will not matter much” at some firms and in the civil service, but a Bachelor’s in Aero from MIT (student D’) is a huge hiring plus, whereas a BSAE from the University of Central Florida (student C’) – and both are ABET accredited in Aero – will not be viewed with particular favor.
Neither MIT nor UCF is in the list as of January 2015 (and they do not seem to show past stops or many future stops beyond a month or so), but a bunch of schools covering a wide range of selectivity appears to be in the list for this month and next month.
One thing that is sorely missing at College Confidential in people’s attempts to compare apples-to-apples is an assessment of intangibles, such as inspiration. The ages of 17 - 25 are very impressionable and idealistic ages.
Let me ask you this: Have you ever gone to a movie that totally changed your outlook on life? Maybe it was “Forks Over Knives” that changed your lifestyle and how you eat? Or have you heard a galvanizing speech? Maybe it was MLK’s “I Have A Dream” that sizzled inside of you and forever changed your viewpoint.
These galvanizing moments of “magic” are a central part of the college experience. That is one reason that you should consider your “gut feeling” in choosing a school. That “magic” partly comes from inside you. If being a Commodore is an aspiration, you will be more changed coming out of Vandy than CSF ever could change you. If your identity is being a “Boomer Sooner” with buddies from high school, you really should attend OU.
What undergraduate school you attend becomes part of your personal identity. It is integral to the rite of passage into adulthood for many. Your entire demeanor, confidence, major thrust of lifelong study, lifelong relationships, and outlook can be formed by forces during your undergraduate years. What you majored in or how well you do often fades in the years after graduation, but the feelings and impressions and inspiration from your school sticks with you.
Does it matter what undergraduate college you attend? Sure it does! Graduate school rarely has that galvanizing impact.
Engineering has become almost as bad as Finance in terms of employers deciding what schools they like applicants to be from. It turns out that ends up being because of the students who gain admission to those schools in the first place, and not so much what happens there.
@ucbalumnus: FYI, the LM site you cited (how’s that for convoluted wording) is for general recruiting (including such specialties as accounting, IT, computer security, contracting, marketing, finance, etc.), not for the Aero Sector engineering and program management . While I probably didn’t make this sufficiently clear, I was only discussing our practices in LM Aero for engineers, scientists, operations researchers, and other degreed technical professionals, since that was the focus of an earlier post (#2) to the thread.
My husband and oldest son are both chemEs and both have worked for top global chemical companies. Ds graduated in 2011 from a small public tech university. He cooped, was interviewed and made offers by companies that hire equally from top 30 engineering schools. (Can’t say either of them have ever worked with an Ivy grad, but I wonder how many Ivy grads fit in plants?) My husband has worked alongside top engineering school grads his entire career. His corporation is just as likely to hire from a well respected local university in any given location as recruiting on larger top university campuses.
I thought it was funny when I googled UCF’s career services page that a link dedicated to LOckheed Martin’s College Work Experience was at the bottom of the main page.
@ItsJustSchool (re #5): When you use the term “garduate school,” are you including “profeesional schools?” If so, I respectfully – but strongly – disagree with your statement, “Graduate school rearely has that galvanizing impact.”
Here’s why I demur: attorneys, physicans, MBAs, clergy, and so forth frequently have rather narrowly oriented professional lives. They, too, experience “galvanizing moments” – although possibly more professionally than personally oriented – during their years in professional school. For example, I know many fine lawyers who feel their terms as law review editiors were pivitol to their lives – both personal and professional. Similarly, divinity and medical students often believe their lives were altered during – and by – their professional educations (especially, patient and parishioner contact). In addition, some MBAs developed a deep understanding for the many essential elements of an enterprise that require integration and optimization – and for the tools that may help accomplish these goals – and this systemic managerial approach becomes fundamental to their lives (including their personal lives).
To summaruize, what professional school you attend also (to use your phrase) “becomes part of your identity” – quite possibly larger and more crucial than undergraduate school – because a professional career consumes such a huge amount of an adult’s life and because those law, medical, business, divinity, etc. school “galvanizing moments” are both integral and essential to every day’s work.
Finally, I am not to sure the foregoing analysis would apply equally to, for example, Master’s degrees in disciplines such as English Literature, History, or Philosophy, simply because there’s no single, highly focused profession that results from such advanced degrees.
@TopTier, I am familiar with PhDs and MBAs. The MBAs I know identify strongly with their undergraduate (BU, U of Rochester, Princeton, Penn, USC) more strongly than with their MBA (Kellogg, Anderson, Pepperdine, Wharton - guess it is both, but there was an MS from MIT in there in the interim, and the identification was more with UG Penn, Pepperdine). As far as PhDs, even UCBerkeley and Harvard are not as galvanizing for my colleagues as their undergraduates. The only exception in my experience is students that attended Exeter or St. Paul’s, where the Boarding School experience is the one that they feel really shaped them.
I could definitely see how a program, especially a cohort program like those used in professional schools, could have more of an impact, though.
I’m not sure either student A or student B is getting an Aero/Astro job. Does Harvard have that degree? I just don’t think of Harvard as an Aeronautical Engineering powerhouse. Oops, did I wander back towards the original post?!?!? Sorry!
UA Huntsville also has Lockheed Martin interviewing engineering students (computer and electrical) http://www.uah.edu/ssc/career-support/career-fair/registered-employers (scroll down to engineering which is the section after business. Boeing also recruits there (including aerospace engineers) as does the US Dept of Missile Defense (also aerospace engineers) (ranked 181)
Of course those companies recruit at UA Huntsville. They are all local employers there. Most companies interview at schools local to their operations. Headquarters of Space and Missile Defense Command (US Army) is in Huntsville, and there is a lot of support activity there from defense contractors. LockMart also has a major center for IR sensors in Orlando, so of course they would recruit at UCF. UCF also has the well-respected Center for Research in Electro-Optics and Lasers (CREOL), which has excellent faculty (including emeritus Michael Bass, author of the seminal text “Lasers”). None of this is hugely surprising.
It isn’t surprising to me. What you wrote is exactly what I have been posting. Apparently it is surprising to TopTier who stated
the implication is that STEM degrees would not be hired from UCF. My point is simply that LHM recruits engineers from lower ranked schools. (They also recruit engineers from schools not on their backdoor like UA.)
@Mom2aphysicsgeek, it was not aimed specifically at you, but to the conversation in general. I think @TopTier’s point has some validity (as stated in post #3), though. The program at UCF is both nationally recognized in infrared, and in lasers, AND at LM’s (they often go by “LM” or just “LockMart”) back door, (as well as N-G and L3 in Apopka). The program at UA Huntsville is in LMs backyard for supporting SMDC. These programs either were (or cultivated over time became) excellent feeders for these companies. While the schools may be “lower ranked,” the programs are not at all, having professors such as Michael Bass and H. John Caulfield (at UA Huntsville) arriving in the late 80s, who both attracted funding and junior faculty and have built up quite a reputation and capability.
“None of this is surprising” because it discusses renowned programs that graduate technical professionals right at the doorstep of LM operations.
I am sure you will find recruiting to be robust at a place like UNH to support LM’s Sanders operation in Nashua, as well.
None of this speaks to the OP, as far as I can see.
“None of this speaks to the OP, as far as I can see.”
I’m thoroughly confused by how it doesn’t. The OP asked in terms of generalities. aerospace was not even mentioned. My repsonse was in terms of local reputation of universities and business as well as ABET programs. Both can and do factor in future emplyment options. It isn’t a LM specific question.
The automatic assumption that student C makes a poor decision negatively impacting future career is not valid. School rank is not the only factor that matters. (And the way I read TT’s post
“Lockheed Martin is the nation’s largest employer of degreed engineers, scientists, operations researches, and other technical professionals. We – I spent 22+ years there --** simply don’t interview at the overwhelming majority of ABET engineering schools,** although every school where we recruit entry-level engineers is ABET accredited. Perhaps it “will not matter much” at some firms and in the civil service, but a Bachelor’s in Aero from MIT (student D’) is a huge hiring plus, whereas a BSAE from the University of Central Florida (student C’) – and both are ABET In Aero – will not be viewed with particular favor.”
is saying that non-business oriented students like engineers would be at a disadvantage. (He says it more than once in this thread.)
I disagree with his general assessment. It is not a given for majors/careers across the country. Top companies will hire students from regional,schools they respect. Students do not have to disregard those less than tippy top schools simply bc USNWR declares them ranked #whatever. It is the employers’ opinion for recruiting that matters. I have seen it in my husband’s career and in my kids’ job offers. And once they have been hired, on the job performance is all that has mattered.
