Does legacy really matter?

Parents Forum
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<p>Some of this anecdotal evidence does not add up. I was a college counselor at some elite high schools, and trust me, legacy matters a lot at most of the colleges talked about here.</p>

<p>A kid with great stats and her name on a building rejected by Duke? There has to be much more to that story. Duke takes legacies with generous families and low stats all the time. I saw more under qualified legacies get in there than anywhere over the years. And in the Price of Admission, Duke is highlighted as a development whore.</p>

<p>Princeton accepts legacies at about 4 times the rate of other applicants. It’s at least double the rate at all ivies.</p>

<p>I do agree at most of these schools the legacy needs at least median stats. The ECs can be lacking though. And they can’t take too many from Boston, NYC and similar, but if you’re a legacy with under median stats in Mississippi you have a real shot.</p>

<p>Legacy is so powerful that when advising our non legacies on where to apply, we needed to understand what legacies we had that year. If we had 4 legacies who were qualified applying ED at Penn, we knew our other kids didn’t have much of a chance no matter how qualified.</p>

<p>It goes beyond what each family individually gives. It’s about overall spirit and community. These colleges need to keep the family happy. Percent of legacies has gone up at some top schools in the last couple of years, shrinking endowments remind the schools where their bread is buttered.</p>

<p>At all of these schools the children of big donors can be idiots or troubled. We are not talking about those who gave a few thousand every year. But there are many who give say a million dollars. That matters even at HYP because it’s likely there’s more to come.</p>

<p>There are some top schools that don’t play as much: Stanford, NU and MIT are among them.</p>

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<p>“I understand that if a family has their name on a building, that’s one thing,…”</p>

<p>Maybe not even then, there was an incident last year of a Cornell applicant with a family name that WAS on a building, multi-generation legacy, who was ultimately rejected ! [She probably shouldn’t have written an article about it…]</p>

<p>“It’s even worse when the older sibling is at the school.”
We’ve got this situation now, son would be a legacy, his sister currently attending.
He might be interested, however his acceptance would be a real testament to the value of a legacy bump. He will probably not apply, for a couple reasons but this is among them I’m sure.</p>

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<p>I live in No VA., and I can tell you that every State U had bumper crops this yr. Even JMU and GMU passed the 30K application marker for 4K spots. I disagree with you that it gives an advantage to legacies. The reason why is because of the economy kids who would prefer to go private, but can’t afford it are now applying IS to public. </p>

<p>As far as parent donations, have you checked out many of these universities endowments. They are near the 1/2 BILLION marker. 1K or 10K a yr is not a make or break for them. They earn that in a few hours just from interest and investments.</p>

<p>This is also a reason why Legacy has less of an impact than it did 20 yrs ago. The endowments are so large they can live off of it with out touching the principal.</p>

<p>Additionally, for schools like UVA, UNCCH, Duke, etc., every time their football/basketball team plays on tv, they get $$$ and it’s not chump change. Team goes to a bowl game or the NCAA 64 and more money is pouring in. Go and tailgate at a college game, the parking fee alone pulls in a 6 figure number every week. Now add in the concessions and a football game could bring in 200K+ a week. At some colleges to buy basketball tickets for one game could range from 500+ per seat. Legacy money is a pitiance.</p>

<p>Add into the pot of their apparel, ticket sales, etc. and unless you are donating a building or sponsoring a chair, your 500 a yr as a legacy is not a make or break to them if your stop because your kid doesn’t get in.</p>

<p>DO you believe that when Wal-Mart sells their apparel, that the college doesn’t get a cut? Do you believe when Lowes sells the neon light for the school with the UVA logo, UVA doesn’t get a cut? Do you believe they don’t get a cut for every flag sold at any store? Or the stickers and logos that parents put on their cars? Of course they do, and all of that goes back into their endowment. That tally is much more per yr than the 100 legacies who did not get in.</p>

<p>It is all about business sense.</p>

<p>UVA is a nationally ranked public Ivy, not because they allow legacies in over more qualified applicants. They are nationally ranked because of the caliber of students that attend.</p>

<p>As I stated it can help if you are on the cusp, but if you are a clear cut in, the legacy had no impact, but for their marketing purposes. If you are a clear cut NO, you are still not getting in because the folks give 1K a yr.</p>

<p>Redroses,</p>

<p>This girl had no issues what so ever, we were all floored. She not only had the stats, but was an NMF finalist, Coca-Cola finalist and a state grant finalist, which she won. She went onto UNCCH full ride merit and never employed the grant that she won. She graduated last yr with an aero engineering degree Magna. </p>

<p>The irony was we have 8 hs in that district, and 2 kids from a lower quality hs both got in with lower gpas and less APs. We all assumed (and you know what that means) it was a diversity issue.</p>

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<p>A friend’s D was a double legacy at Davidson. Grandparents went to school and taught there. States at the top 25th percent and got rejected.</p>

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<p>I don’t think legacy matters so much as if your family can write an enormous check - and I mean enormous - plus having immediate family members attending or who are alums. </p>

<p>Last I heard it counted for something between a 1-2% plus on your admission application. Although that might be different percentage, depending upon school.</p>

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<p>Really. Are you people out to give me gray hair??? LOL.</p>

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<p>bullet wrote: “As far as parent donations, have you checked out many of these universities endowments. They are near the 1/2 BILLION marker. 1K or 10K a yr is not a make or break for them. They earn that in a few hours just from interest and investments.”</p>

<p>True: but more true before the economic meltdown. Endowments across the board dropped what? 25%? 30%? 40%? My Ivy alma mater saw several billion in endowment evaporate (I guess that steers you to only a few candidates, right?) and now has faced 3 rounds of faculty and staff reductions.</p>

<p>Plus, publics are being squeezed by reductions from state revenues. My home state has some great publics (with many OOS applicants) but everything is getting tight. I simply can’t believe that there isn’t a renewed emphasis on legacy preferences in these rocky financial times.</p>

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<p>More anecdotes - friends whose S was a two-generation legacy to Vanderbilt. Both parents, plus grandfather. Was not admitted. Don’t know his stats, but he got into some other top schools where he was not a legacy, so must not have been too bad.</p>

<p>I graduated from UVa, but now live out of state. I contacted them to find out if legacy meant anything. They said that my out-of-state D would be considered as in-state for admissions purposes (not for tuition) so it would be slightly easier to get in. She chose not to apply.</p>

<p>I work at a non-selective public university. We give out of state legacies in-state tuition, and allow them to apply for special scholarships from our alumni association.</p>

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<p>From your lips to God’s ears.</p>

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<p>Let me state again:</p>

<p>Public U work under different rules from private elites. (keep state legislatures in mind).</p>

<p>Read “The Chosen” for the back story on how the legacy preference at elites (specifically HYP) came about. Hint: It was not about money.</p>

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<p>I have to really disagree with Bullet’s analysis, indeed, it’s not just about money. Legacy and development are 2 different things. Now a legacy development candidate, and this is a natural overlap, is powerful.</p>

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<p>Which goes back to the point, if you are on the cusp than legacy can help, but if you are below or above the line, legacy is not an issue regarding the BFE.</p>

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<p>Have to ask, what is your alma mater’s endowment at currently. Is it still in the BILLIONS? DO you not see how insane it is they have Billions in a fund, but prefer to cut staff instead of touching their rainy day fund?</p>

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<p>Have you checked to see that many state universities increased tuition by 7-10% every yr. They too don’t touch their endowments, instead pass the budget shortfall to the students.</p>

<p>Additionally, you are missing the point about UVA, UNCCH, USC, UCLA, UMich, BU, UT, etc. None of these schools are shabby when it comes to the admission process. Their big money comes from their athletic department not legacy.</p>

<p>Heck, the avg app fee is 50-75 a pop. Have 30K students apply and you now have 1.5+ Million in funds…that is a lot of legacy money they need to have them give a spot over another child who is equally or more qualified. </p>

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<p>If the endowments are taking a hit from an ROI point, don’t you think that is true for the legacy parents gifting to the college? Just because you are legacy does not mean you ever donated a penny. The OP had stated not the building legacy, but the typical legacy. Our DS was a legacy and we never gave a penny to the school. He is there in their Scholars program, not because he was a legacy, but because he academically earned the spot. </p>

<p>If you do go on chance threads, many times the OP will list under “hook” legacy. For some colleges it can be a hook, for others not so much.</p>

<p>If you look at Redroses comment about Princeton and the amount of legacies, you can take it as face value that legacies get an edge. However, could you not also take the opinion that children of IVY league parents have always had education be a driving factor in their life. It might not have anything to do with legacy admittance, but the fact the parents understand the rigors needed to get in compared to the non-legacy child.</p>

<p>Additionally, a child that is an IVY league legacy is more likely to be in a more affluent school system then the child whose parents did not attend college. The school is going to see that in the admissions process, and what will they do with that information? Chances are because of diversity there will be a legacy who did not gain admittance over the other non-legacy child.</p>

<p>Diversity is a factor in the decision process.</p>

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<p>What I find vaguely mind boggling about the entire legacy discussion is that my son’s chances of being accepted at an elite university are somehow affected by an ill-informed, half-a**ed decision I made 35 years ago. There’s some sort of Calvinistic-Fate-Karma lesson in there somewhere.</p>

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<p>Using Princeton as an example, we can see that legacy does matter, and how much varies school by school. Do Princeton legacies have a superior educational upbringing as compared to Harvard and Yale legacies? I think it’s safe to say no, they don’t. Yet Princeton accepts their legacies at a higher rate. It’s simply school philosophies at work.</p>

<p>You seem to assume these schools have a billion in cash sitting around. The financial picture is way more complex. Do they need to make cuts when the endowment falls? Yes, they do, just like individuals do when they lose 30% of their net worth whether it means selling the Lear jet or giving up the weekly meal out.</p>

<p>Again, the legacy reference is not just about money.</p>

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<p>I agree it is school philosophies at work, and that is why to create a blanket statement legacies have an edge is giving false hope to many.</p>

<p>I do not assume they have money stashed in safety boxes at the bank, many of these investments are long term and on top of that exist for tax reasons. </p>

<p>I also agree that they must tighten their belt like us mere mortals. My point was, for them there is a second option, and that is increase tuition to cover the budget shortfall.</p>

<p>I also agree legacy as I have illustrated is not just about money. You can give money to the school, but please don’t walk down the road that it is a HOOK.</p>

<p>I think many people think Legacy is a HOOK. I am just saying you need to investigate the college. A Hook is something that sets you apart from the other applicants. For some colleges legacy can be a hook, for others, it can be thanks for donating, but we don’t care about that when it comes to admissions.</p>

<p>This thread is filled with multiple personal anecdotal stories proving that being a legacy didn’t give the applicant the BFE.</p>

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<p>I think we also need to consider that colleges’ admissions objectives are always changing. A college that favored legacies 10 years ago might not anymore – so you can’t make an argument on a book written on evidence that is 10 years old, or even 5 years old. Colleges are under some pressure to reduce legacy admits, and I think some are responding to that. </p>

<p>Once upon a time, legacies were accepted with below-average stats, but that is less likely to happen now. And sometimes there is more than just legacy that is attractive. I know a legacy who got into an Ivy with a B- average, but he also got into other highly selective schools – because he was a recruited football player.</p>

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<p>There are very few private colleges where legacy can not be considered a hook. A hook meaning there’s something that separates you from the crowd and will give your application added consideration. It’s not the hook that being a recruited athlete is, but it’s a hook. The lower ranked the college is the more of a hook it is.</p>

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<p>I do not believe that being a legacy is a “hook” at Notre Dame any longer. They get so many legacy applicants that being it certainly does not “separate you from the crowd”. </p>

<p>In our family, and coincidentally in one other family we know of, both parents are alums and one grandparent in each family is a contributing alum. Older students, class of 2011, both were waitlisted; younger siblings, class of 2014, did not even make that courtesy wait-list. In all cases, the kids were at least mid-50% stats qualified and in both families the younger students had the higher stats but were outright rejected. I would no longer list ND as a school that gives an sort of advantage to legacy applicants.</p>

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<p>ND accepts over 40 percent of legacies and classes are 25% legacy! That is way more than most colleges on both of those fronts. Very hard to say there’s no legacy preference going on there.</p>

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<p>A school could still give some sort of advantage to legacy applicants AND still reject a heck of a lot of them, even those who are (by the numbers) qualified. Those two things aren’t inconsistent.</p>