Oh and I forgot to mention. Parents want us to stay together if I’m not going to Cal. Sister does not want grad degree, so she needs name recognition for her statistics undergrad
You are right, I worded that poorly.
I was just put off by the idea that the “stats” (apparently referring to her 34 ACT ) somehow means that she is smarter/better than students with AP Calc. From the stats she posted in her first “Match School Recommendations?” thread, she had SAT II’s in history & Chinese, but not Math – also a very odd omission for someone intent on studying engineering.
No one questions that her ACT score demonstrates her potential --but she doesn’t seem to get that colleges want also want to see demonstrated achievement. It doesn’t matter how smart she is, if she hasn’t taken AP Calc she’s at a disadvantage among students who have. And obviously the idea of attending UW with the intent of applying to an engineering major (or stats for the sister) and graduating in 3 years is not going to happen.
I don’t know, I’m torn. Do I think it’s the best idea to go to Rochester? Not necessarily, but many of you are saying “it’s impossible,” and I think it’s quite possible.
This dad makes a lot of money. The average life expectancy is much higher (in the mid-80’s) and more and more people don’t want to retire so early. Do I want to retire early? Yes. I have big plans. :)>-
Are there a lot of what ifs? Sure. Dad would likely need to work for the next 8-10 years to make it happen. Does he want to? Sounds like it. Did the OP think they owe more on the house? Yes, but that’s unconfirmed. He must think there’s some equity in the house if he’s willing to borrow against it. Is it smart to take out more debt at his age? Maybe, maybe not, perhaps he doesn’t mind the possibility of having to sell his house if necessary. Perhaps the family was planning to downsize anyway. Maybe he planned ahead and knows if something happens to him, his life insurance policy will pay off the house and any other debt including student loans.
In the end, I think it’s up to the family and their personal risk tolerance. I think there’s a hint of “well I wouldn’t do it” or “I don’t think it’s worth it” throughout this thread which seem more of a personal judgment or preference rather than what is financially feasible.
If I were the OP, I would probably still look toward taking the gap year, working and reapplying to unis with better merit aid. If I (personally) were the parent, I might (knowing my financial situation as I described above) not do it if I was age 62, but I certainly would if I was age 50, but again, personal decision and I plan to retire earlier.
And what if the family decides to pay for Rochester, but 2 years in they determine they just can’t afford any more and the kids can’t finish? Well then - it will be a big dose of reality. What happens next? It’s not the end of the world! The twins get a job and take night classes until the get their degrees. Thousands of people have done it, it’s nothing new. (And tough classes or not - perhaps she’s smart enough to ‘catch up’ at the tutoring center, etc and if not, well, then, change of major. So what.)
I just don’t see how some folks can say Rochester is not an option. We can’t know every factor that goes into the decision and clearly it’s not the dad’s first rodeo.
I have confidence the OP is very smart and will find her way.
If your sister hopes for a career as a statistician, then she’ll probably need a master’s degree. It’s a good major as a foundation for something else, but school name recognition probably means very little for a career in that major.
If my lack of college stem prep classes is a problem, I don’t mind taking a class or two over the summer at the UH west oahu campus (closer to where I live and work) or LCC. And I don’t think my 34 makes me better than AP calc students (the AP calc class at my school is subpar anyway, the student ranked 2nd in our class, straight As, flunked AP calc exam with score of 1, while passing his other two APs with 5s last year, definitely was not because of his study habits or intellect, everyone gets 1 or 2s on AP calc exam from my school. My IB schedule didn’t work with the AP calc class.), but I’m saying that I do have the potential to even the field despite my disadvantage.
And my sister wants to go into business too, but as a statician. I’ve asked her if she wants a grad degree, she says she researched for her career it’s obviously an advantage, as in any career, but not really necessary, so she will probably get it later on, part time while working.
@sushiritto: You didn’t actually respond to the logic of my argument and just repeated yourself . . .
Anyway, yes, I agree with @calmom: I’m not sure how valid your sis’s assumptions that
- School name matters in stats jobs
- A non-specific undergrad stats major is “enough”
Are.
Glancing through this discussion: http://civilstat.com/2013/08/is-a-masters-degree-in-statistics-worthwhile/
Seems like a Master’s in stats may help and can’t hurt, so I wouldn’t take out a lot of loans and leave no financial space for a Master’s in your sister’s case either (though Rochester does have that data science major).
https://oafa.pitt.edu/financialaid/costs/
http://www.engineering.pitt.edu/Industrial/
http://www.engineering.pitt.edu/MEMS/
Why couldn’t OP sign up for the AP Calc AB test? If she ends up getting a score of 4 or 5, then she would have credit for Calc 1. And sis could take it and AP Stats too.
Since the twins need to stay together, and don’t have direct admit to their majors at UW, and dad might pay for UR, how about if they both apply to University of Pittsburgh?
I believe they have industrial engineering, also materials science. And a co-op program.
My D’s friend is majoring in statistics there and due to AP credits (they give some credit for IB too), she is going to get her Bachelor’s and Master’s in four years. She is doing an internship at CMU this summer.
The application is online, you can enter grades from transcript with the SRAR, send ACT score and pay $45, there are a few short essay questions. It might be another option.
They have rolling admission. Merit deadline has passed, but maybe they would still get something because of geographic diversity and high stats/class rank (is twin’s class rank very high too?).
Do you know specifically what you would have to do to transfer into your major at UW? Is it TOTALLY within your control - take specific classes and get specific grades - or is there a component outside of your control like the major has to have space available to take transfers? Also, do any of the classes you need to take for transfer have restricted enrollment in certain semesters? Some classes may be closed to non eng majors in fall for example which can totally throw off sequencing. I’m NOT trying to rain on your parade or be nitpicking, but this goes directly to the feasibility of your plan of graduating in 3 years, with a change in major thrown in. My son did an internal transfer into a capped engineering program and it was not easy to do and put the pieces together. And now that he’s about to graduate they’ve tightened the transfer policy even more. Just trying make sure whatever you end up doing is as solid a plan as possible
Good luck!
Oh - and I’m in the parent age bracket and there is no way under the sun I’d take out a 2nd mortgage on my house other than maybe a health emergency. We are close to retirement and this is the time that will make or break our finances for retirement. In ten years it wouldn’t be as disastrous but right now taking a chunk out of our principal means we’ve lost not only that money but the ability to make money with that savings - you know, the compounding effect. So put me in the group that is really really concerned about the family finances, given their ages.
UW is tough-- definitely no automatic path: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/students-frustrated-trying-to-get-into-uws-strict-engineering-program/
OP: we’re not saying you’re not a good enough student to cut it at UW. We’re saying UW actively tries to weed out really good students. You never know if you’re going to get sick the week of an important midterm; that alone can completely take you out of the running for declaring the major you want. The competition there is cutthroat and frankly your performance is often beyond your control in many ways. I’ve had exceptionally bright and hardworking friends attend UW when they were not direct admits, and despite them continuing to be exceedingly smart and hardworking, they were not allowed to declare the major that they wanted. UW is simply far too strict when you are not a direct admit.
Don’t risk it. I had multiple ear infections and flu-like illnesses multiple times my freshman year as I dealt with stress and the new environment of living in the dorms, etc, and other conditions flaring up. You never know what can happen to you. Please please please don’t leave your major up to chance like that; while going to a less recognizable school won’t hurt, not declaring the right major WILL.
^^so true . . . DS got very sick his first semester and was lucky he didn’t have to withdraw for medical reasons. That first year can be bumpy.
She hasn’t had the subject – she wrote that her school does have an AP Calc class, but everyone who takes the class flunks the exam, and apparently she also had scheduling problems (post #524).
I understand that, my daughter’s high school had the same story. It was an online course and students could sign up for it, but historically no one ever could pass the AP Calc exam…
OP, I think you missed the point. Your lack of college prep stem classes is the probable reason that you were rejected from colleges you thought were matches, assuming you applied to engineering programs or indicated a desire to study engineering. So you can’t fix that now.
However, because of poor advice from your school (and disregarding advice you were given on CC in December), you now are probably without an affordable option for next year; you also don’t want to take a gap year, and you don’t want to go for a full tuition scholarship in Alabama-- so that leaves the remaining option of enrolling at UH in the fall .
I had suggested that you could take math & science courses at UH, and since everyone seems to think that UH’s standards are so low, that you should be able to get A’s, and then you could apply as a transfer for the following year at one of the many WUE colleges that would be affordable. Having A’s on your UH transcript would probably increase your chances of getting admitted to an engineering program as a transfer.
If instead your father opts to borrow a boatload of money to send you and your twin off to Rochester… you’ll probably want to work to maximize your earnings over the summer, because your biggest problem going forward will be money. You’ll figure out soon enough at Rochester whether you can keep up or not in your intended major, and what grades you can manage. But as I pointed out, math classes are usually graded on a curve, and if you are learning material for the first time that is essentially review for your classmates – you may find the grading to be harsher than what you have experienced at your public high school.
Yes to the 1st year yucks. The rooms are small and in general you’re in close proximity to so many students, it’s difficult to stay healthy. Think my son had a cold or virus a good chunk of his freshman year. Pretty standard practice, much like going to daycare or school for the 1st time - it’s such a petri dish of stuff!
I thought you didn’t have to take the AP class in order to take the AP test. If OP takes some past AP calc AB tests for practice and sees how they go, maybe it would be worth a try. She said her math SL teacher taught them extra material.
Ironically, I agree with you @sushiritto when you say the family needs to sit down with their bank and see what is feasible. Until then, we are just throwing darts into the dark.
When will dad be home? Hopefully in plenty of time to make a decision. He has already said he does not want to use his retirement $, but maybe once you all sit down and work it out he will?
I would start with your total minus any FA that is NOT loans for each school.
1). Your balance is XXXX for UCB, XXXX for UW and XXXX for UR. (Fill in the X’s).
Sounds like UCB= only 4K aid…it’s out.
UW = 47k
UR= 35100
2). You can each take 27k in student loans over your 4 years. First year is 5500 each. So XXXX minus 5500 each. What is that?
UW=$41500
UR= 29,600
- divide that number by 12. That is the monthly payment to the school. What is that? For each school. (Remember tho, most schools do only 8 or 9 pmt plans).
UW= 3500/mo
UR= 2500/mo
4). Now show dad. Is it doable? For each of you? Maybe if he sees it in black and white, it is real and he then tells you the “how”. Or he says, I can’t.
My only fear here is that you may have to leave school after a few years over $…
While I don’t necessarily agree with @sushiritto 's argument- I’m much too fiscally risk adverse- I’m somewhat dismayed by some posters seeming desire to shut him/her down. While sometimes kids try to pass themselves off as experts and give poor and sometimes dangerous advice, this is another experienced adult giving their POV and isn’t that the point and beauty of these threads?
Just because it runs counter to the majority opinion here isn’t a reason in and of itself to dismiss it as wrong or bad, and I feel some people here aren’t being fair to sushiritto.
OP is an extraordinarily mature 17 year old and great sport- most adults wouldn’t be so open and polite, and (in my opinion) people should let her take all this info back to her parents and let them figure out what to do.- which is what they will do anyway. As we know with our own kids- sometimes the more you nag the more they dig in their heels. I feel like at this point much of the excellent and sound advice that’s been given is starting to sound like nagging
My S did take AP exams for classes he never took the course for, so it is possible. The OP can see if her HS will allow her and her twin to take the AP calculus exam and see how well they have mastered calculus that many of the other students will have mastered in engineering and statistics. Most are getting 4s and 5s.
OP, you need to let the U you are planning to attend know if you will be taking courses at any U other than the U where you will start in the fall and be sure it’s ok with them. Alternatively, you may check to see if UH offers calculus in the summer that you and twin can audit so you will be better prepared for the math you will face in college.
No one is suggesting you and twin are not hard working. It’s just that calculus is not for everyone and if it’s brand new material for the two of you and review for everyone else, you will have a much tougher time, no question.
If you and twin will be having to work over the summer and all year to afford school you’re financially stretching to attend, there will be less time for studying and catching up to peers. There are only so many hours in the day.
I considered binge-taking AP exams for classes I didn’t take just to knock out gen ed credits, but then I chose a school where my gen eds would’ve already been covered and didn’t take certain AP class substitutions anyway. But point is, you can definitely 100% take an AP exam for a class that you did not take.
My relative was able to audit an organic chem course over the summer st UH, which helped prepare her for taking organic chem during the school year at her U. Fortunately, she was able to have the time over the summer to be in the class and learn the material so it was review when she took the class the following fall at her U.
I know some Us do allow students to take pre-approved courses at other Us (D was approved and took German at UH over the summer, which transferred to USC after she passed 3rd semester of it at USC). Other Us do NOT allow students to do any coursework at other Us.