I would not recommend someone planning on a technical degree to skip any of the introductory math classes in college, even if the student got a 4 or 5 on the AP tests.
^ Seconded. Again, even the smartest and most hardworking kids routinely underestimate college. I’ve rarely, RARELY seen anyone overestimate college. It really does not happen. College comes to smack you down at least once in your college career.
Having an extremely solid calculus and physics background is super critical. AP is SUPPOSED to be standardized, but there are huge differences between schools, and you can never really tell the relative strength of your high school or that particular class until you’re in college.
Really highly recommend taking math and science from the start at university, even if you got an A+ and a 5 in AP. College classes on AP subjects, though they’re SUPPOSED to be “the same” as AP, I’ve found are always significantly harder (pace is MUCH faster: all of AP Calculus BC is crammed into one semester in your average first calculus for engineers class – and many top high school students already complain about how fast BC goes, so just imagine that times two or more…)
I agree–nearly all the kids in my son’s engineering program had received 4s and 5s in caluculus and physics AP exams but still took the entire engineering sequence from the beginning. You had to really fight to be exempted out of starting at the beginning of the sequence.
Some of us are just suggesting it would be helpful for OP and twin to consider taking the AP calculus and perhaps physics exams to see how they measure up against the other kids who are going to be in the programs they are seeking.
So…the parents bought a house six years ago for $750,000 and now owe more than that on the house.
They will need about $300,000 additional loans for BOTH twins to attend college…which will mean that they will have over $1,000,000 in loans secured by their home.
Sorry…but I do not think this is a fiscally sound plan for a parent who will be 66 or so when these girls graduate from college.
@sushiritto it’s fine for you to think this amount of debt is OK. And for some families it will be fine.
But really…that’s a ton of loan debt. A ton.
Well, I’ve never questioned any of that - there’s no doubt in my mind that you’ll do fine academically no matter where you go. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean I’m not concerned about you getting into a program that you’re not directly admitted to.
I had similar concerns for my own daughter when she was going through this process. She was a business major (econ/finance/math undergrad; masters in stats). She got a direct admit into 4 of the 5 business schools she applied to; the 5th school did not direct admit her. This was not because her stats weren’t very good (they were), it was simply that they accepted only a handful (fewer than a dozen) of super-stellar students directly into the program and everyone else was admitted sophomore year (with about a 50% admission rate). My daughter did not choose that school because she did not want to be put into a position where she might start there and have to transfer if she was unable to continue in her major of choice. She did not doubt her ability to compete academically with the other students. Her issue was the fact that there was subjectivity in admissions. If it had been strictly a GPA thing, she wouldn’t have worried as much. Once subjectivity, and a bunch of intangibles, entered the equation, she wanted no part of it. I think there was probably a 90+% chance that she would have been admitted to the major she wanted as a sophomore, but with other direct-admissions on the table, it wasn’t a risk worth taking.
So my advice with respect to UW would be to figure out the path to the major you want and make sure it is fairly objective and very certain. Also sit down with the catalog and map out a course plan to see if graduating in three years is realistic. My guess is that it’s not - it’s very hard for engineers, with a lockstep series of classes, to finish early.
@thumper1 No, my understanding was that they have $30K per year (for both kids) and they would need to take and additional 30K per year (for both kids) So that’s $120K in loans. @jql2017 Can clarify this.
I think the actual amounts are still up for debate thanks to dad being out of town and Mom’s mysterious rainy day fund…$120 at that income level and age is more palatable than 200K which was the original number being thrown out. Not that it’s a small amount by any stretch of the imagination. OP is trying to wrap her head around partial info so it’s not completely clear yet.
The Univ. of Rochester costs $68k/year. OP got $24k in grants and the parents can pay $15k. That leaves a net cost of ~$29k/year. If the packages are roughly the same, the gap is ~$60k/year for both girls. Over 4 years that’s ~$240k plus interest. Added to the parents’ mortgage debt, the estimate @thumper1 came up with seems pretty accurate.
@austinmshauri OP said:
So out of that $32 that is left, OP’s parents pay half and take out half in loans.
The UW admission to engineering major process is for undeclared frosh to take the prerequisite courses and then apply into a competitive admission process (which is not strictly by grades/GPA, but also includes essays). There is no assured admission threshold that a student can know beforehand.
https://www.engr.washington.edu/current/admissions/admitstats
Unfortunately no, @Fishnlines29. It sounded as if the 15K they can pay per year, per twin, is inclusive of “some” loans, not all cash funded or savings. It is unclear.
Her twin also received an 8k scholarship, not the 12 so her package will cost a bit more.
Agree, in a previous post, I did mention it was unclear and that OP would have to confirm one way or another. And that makes sense about the twin.
Lots of students do fine skipping single variable calculus after AP calculus. (This includes high school students who take multivariable calculus and other math at local colleges after completing calculus BC.)
However, I would recommend that students with AP calculus credit try the college’s old final exams for the course(s) to be skipped, in order to check their knowledge against the college’s standards. Also, those who took calculus AB, or a two year sequence of high school calculus (AB first year, rest of BC second year) should be aware that college math courses will cover material at a much faster pace than their high school did.
I agree with OP. The issue for this thread should be about finding affordable schools for her and her twin. She didn’t ask us to write her academic and career plan.
This is not the norm for typical colleges (as opposed to places like MIT).
It’s not the norm for calculus classes, but in my and technical friends’ experiences it IS the norm for technical calculus.
So if you’re in the business section… no.
If you’re in an engineering section… anecdotally, yes.
Also let’s not pretend UW is a typical college. UW is fast paced af.
My general observation is that at age 62, if the father has so much discretionary income that taking out loans or refinancing the house makes sense, why isn’t there currently less debt (large 30 yr mortgage taken on at 57) and more college saving already? The fact that there isn’t seems to me to indicate that they are already stretching their budget.
@jql2017 Your counselor gave you poor advice by suggesting that you could appeal for more aid based on the fact that 3 kids have already been put through college. We have graduated 4 kids; in addition to our sr we also have 3 younger kids. Schools do not care how many kids we have already put through college. The major influence is how many kids are in college simultaneously.
Most posters have already made the same observations I would make. The only thing I would emphasize is that the idea that only avg kids end up on lower ranked school campuses is pretty much bogus. Lots of families cannot afford to attend top schools. We have advanced kids who (have) attend(ed) very avg campuses bc we refuse to take on debt for college. (When I say advanced, I don’t mean based on test scores. I mean academically gifted and having taken advanced coursework like alg at age 10 and graduating high school with numerous 300 level math and physics courses.) They have had amazing opportunities on those campuses, including the University of Alabama. B-) Their schools have not held them back at all. On the contrary, they have been incredibly successful. Their professors have invited them to do research. They have had acted as mentors. They (had) have gotten excellent co-op and REU opportunities.
The elite or bust mentality is a bubble. There is no need to bust. Success has many paths and it does not require forfeiting financial security.
Fwiw, if you and your sister do take the path of UR or other unaffordable schools, I highly encourage you or your parents to take out life insurance policies on both of you. Nothing would be worse than your parents accruing that level of debt and then something happening to one of you leaving them not only grieiving but with the financial burden on top of it.
What college(s)?
When I was in high school, I took calculus BC (in one year right after precalculus). The next math I took (in college) was college sophomore level math (multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations – courses for math, physics, and engineering majors). I did fine, and so did many others who did the same thing.
Part of the affordability is that in some scenarios the OP proposed she and her twin would get their degrees in only 3 years. We are pointing out it’s not realistic, especially given the poor math prep she and twin admit they’ve received at her HS for either of them to graduate in statistics or engineering in 3 years, especially since they aren’t even admitted to the programs they desire at UW (and no guarantee they ever will be admitted to their preferred programs).
3 years vs 4 years is an affordability issue, especially where there are two students involved and the annual cost of attendance is high. Running out of money and ability to borrow (and repay) more to complete degrees is a real concern.