Too many to list. Embry-Riddle, University of Florida, University of Southern Florida, Case Western, Michigan, NYU, Rice, Pitzer, Loyola, UPitt, CMU, Temple, Drexel, the list goes on… basically every friend I have who’s 1) majoring in engineering and 2) had this conversation with me agreed. Their courses were very similar in that they were much faster paced than AP.
“I did fine, and so did many others who did the same thing.”
So what? No one said kids don’t pass, or even do well. We just said many kids DON’T, or if they do perform well, had to work super extra hard as they adjusted.
It’s conservative advice because an easy A in technical Calculus I is much better than a potential C or lower if you skip ahead. I know so many kids, at my college and many others, who tanked their GPAs early on by being too aggressive and thinking they were ready to continue the math sequence right from high school, when really they weren’t… and then most of the rest of your college experience is spent repairing the GPA. Not good to get off on the wrong foot.
In your high school, did they teach calculus BC over one year, or as a two year sequence (first year AB, second year rest of BC)?
Using University of Michigan as an example, the College of Engineering considers a 5 on calculus BC to fulfill Math 120/115 and 121/116, according to
https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/ap-ib-credit
These are two semesters of single variable calculus:
https://lsa.umich.edu/math/undergraduates/undergraduate-math-courses/100-level-math-courses.html
Whether or not a school ACCEPTS AP is irrelevant, as already mentioned. Accepting a score is not the same as actually being prepared for the “next” class, as many find out once they enroll.
My sample “data” includes both schools where it was 1 year and where it was 2 years.
I would, at a minimum, recommending enrolling in a re-take math class, and if it’s too easy for you, simply drop it and add the next class before the add/drop deadline. Easy.
But in my experience, most freshman find that they are not in fact as overprepared for college as they may have thought.
However, repeating what you already know well is a waste of time and tuition, and could reduce curriculum flexibility (particularly with highly sequenced majors like engineering majors). That is why I suggest that a student with AP credit try the college’s old final exams to determine whether it is safe for him/her to use the AP credit to skip a course as allowed by the college. If the student knows the material well, then skipping opens up a schedule space, possibly later when s/he can then take more additional advanced electives because s/he completed the lower level sequences earlier.
Regardless of this sidebar, I think the OP agrees that she and twin have not had the math background some of the other HS students at other schools may have received and will be busy playing catch up in calculus and physics.
In other words: when in doubt, take the class.
Doesn’t the OP have IB math SL, which includes math through precalculus and a light introduction to calculus (not enough to have advanced placement, though)? If so, then that certainly fulfills the prerequisites of frosh-level single variable calculus.
Of course, at a weed-out school like UW where frosh-level single variable calculus courses are filled with students trying to grade-grub by repeating their AP credit, that may be an unpleasant experience for someone taking their course not repeating what they already know.
However, a student can reduce the level of doubt (i.e. reduce the risk of either wasting time and tuition in a lower level course s/he already knows, or struggle by going too advanced relative to what s/he knows) by trying the college’s old final exams of the courses that are allowed to be skipped.
Why does it seem that there is so much resistance to this idea of using available resources to make a more informed decision?
We might leave the sidebars on the side.
To me, the reason we got involved in discussing academic prep is that OP, as with finances, doesn’t seem fully aware of how challenges can snowball. This isn’t about honor and valor.
And if the teacher was working with them to cover some AP, why not enough for the test? At times, OP writes like an adult, down to the ‘if you work hard enough, gonna be ok’ burden some place on kids. But many times, work and think ‘smart’ is what’s needed.
Also, OP has now said (twice, at least) that she estimated what Dad can pay.
Btw, if Mom is a former accountant, why’s everyone waiting around for Dad?
This class discussion is indeed a sidebar, and is getting too cluttered! Can we leave it that OP keep in mind that the 3 year plan may not be feasible?
I fear we are overwhelming the OP and need to help her focus on the cost to discuss with dad.
Bottom line, I think OP needs to assume she and twin will need 4 full years to get their degrees and attend Us where they were directly admitted into their preferred majors. Calculate the budget based on that rather than wishful thinking of graduating in any shorter timeframe.
Any shorter time will mean less debt.
If OP and Twin were to attend Us where they are NOT direct admits, be resigned to graduating in other majors if they are not competitively admitted into preferred majors and perhaps taking even longer than 4 years to graduate while fulfilling requirements. Any longer time will mean MORE debt.
With regard to the post below, I have mentioned before upthread that climate CAN make a difference. Many HI and other folks have difficulty adjusting to frigid cold temps of Rochester and the PNW gloom of Seattle. Those are definitely considerations.
@PurpleTitan My apologies for not commenting or answering your question. I guess I got caught up with complete strangers in an online forum telling me I should listen to them about my own finances. Or am I kid?
IIRC, you spoke about borrowing for a slightly better undergrad degree, hopefully that’s a correct recollection. This is an area where I’ll defer to you folks, since between Cal, Rochester, UW and UH, I’m not sure of the gradations between these schools in terms of the OP and her sister’s degree and career path. I have a personal preference for Cal, based upon my bias of living in the SF Bay Area and being close to Silicon Valley, and having had relatives graduate from there and one that is currently attending.
I won’t re-litigate my point re: debt, how much debt, etc., but I wonder if two kids from HI, a warm tropical climate, would last 4 years in Rochester, a not-so-tropical climate? It’s a night and day difference.
@ucbalumnus , 567 wasn’t to impugn your argument – I was just trying to quickly sum up some of what @CourtneyThurston was saying. I can see how, if a kid truly knew all of a course’s content, taking the course might be seen as a waste of time and money.
In this case, wherever OP ends up, it probably would be good for her to use all available resources (like schools’ past exams…) to gauge her knowledge level in math.
For clarification, based on my conservative estimate (might be wrong, since my dad tends to get a little huffy when I bug him about finances, so I have to make my own conclusions from numbers he actually provides- and I don’t know where his retirement pension goes), is total of $2500 per month, which is $30k annually, but since there’s two of us, its $15k annually for each of us. Rochester costs 70k, subtracting scholarships and grants of $24k, my own loan that I’m alowed to take out ($5k), work study (4K), mom’s fund ($6k per year for four years for each of us). 70-15-24-5-4-6=16k in loans for me for one year at Rochester. Times two kids, times four years. $128k of debt in total for Dad. Minus $6k sister and I have in savings, is $122k of debt. Possibly less if they reconsider financial aid for us.
UW actually would cost the same. $50k cost of attendance, $4,500 in scholarship, $5500 of my student loans, $4k from part time job, $6k from Mom, 15k out of salary for Dad 50-4.5-5.5-4-6-15=$15k in loans. Times two kids times four years (assuming I can’t manage to graduate early), $120k in loans, minus sister and mines $6k savings, $112k in loans. Even less if I can manage to actually graduate early, maybe in 3.5 years since I will definitely have general credit requirements from IB. (Also, I searched up minimum wage in Seattle- it’s $11?? Hawaii is $9.25 and only since beginning of this year while our cost of living is higher)
Also, I emailed the UW engineering department to ask about admissions. This was their response:
From my experience, it seems like ISE has a very holistic approach to their admission decisions. Also, they truly value interest in the program. As in, even if one student has a lower GPA, ISE is more likely to grant them admission over someone with a higher GPA so long as they express a lot of interest in the ISE department.
More information can be found at http://www.engr.washington.edu/current/admissions/admitstats
ISE also accepts Early (end of Freshman year) and Upper (end of Sophomore year) applications, what this means is that not only do you have multiple “tries” to get in, if you perhaps don’t get in freshman year you still have plenty of time to change majors or perhaps transfer schools if you decide that this would be best for you. I hope this helps and know that the vast majority of engineering students here did not get DA, and were in a very similar situation that you’re in now.
Has mom actually agreed you can have her rainy day fund to totally deplete for college? Has dad agreed to ANY specific amount for at least 4 years? If he gets huffy, maybe he doesn’t want to contribute ANYTHING.
College will be at least a 4 or longer year commitment. There are sad kids whose parents decided after paying did 1st year or even several years it’s too much and ended up getting degree from cheaper local U plus tons of debt.
There’s no guarantee you can get $4k working part time while attending school and if you stay away while working, you have to pay rent and living expenses, netting you LESS if you can get any job.
Oh and we’re waiting around for Dad because Mom is no longer an accountant. No longer works. She doesn’t handle finances anymore. Dad makes the money, Dad pays the bills. Dad directs where, and how much the money goes (though he does take mom’s opinion on large purchases). But Mom does not know how much money goes where, only vague figures when I need solid ones.
Be sure to make a call to FA, if you haven’t, to light the fire.
Yes Mom said she can contribute $6k per year for each of us (might I bring up the fact she was the one willing to stretch whatever means possible for me to attend Cal) Dad is willing to pay (was nice when explaining to me that he’s planning to refinance house, start paying loan while I’m still in college, “yes, we will help you pay off student debt”), but he wants me to leave finances to him, hence why he doesn’t like giving me specific numbers, only his general plans. However, he agreed to calculate net income per month/year (after all bills and such) when he comes back so I can appeal rochester.
“Maybe he gets huffy because he doesn’t want to contribute ANYTHING”
Ma’am please don’t jump to conclusions about whether my dad wants to pay for college or not…