I agree that Marigold looks awfully big to be Edith’s baby.
I also watched the Manners show and thought it was really interesting. Whenever DH watches with me, he always comments on the rigid way they had to live with dressing for dinner formally every night but we both enjoyed the fact that at dinner, everyone must defer to what Cora does. If she turns left to chat with guest on the left, so does everyone else at the table.
I am not such a big fan of the Bunting character either but it is set up for her of course to tutor Daisy so that Daisy can be prepared to take over the farm. I don’t see it working out that she and Tom have a relationship.
While I understand and largely abide by the manners above when a guest in someone else’s home with one notable exception, this form of etiquette is something many undergrad classmates who are passionate about politics and speaking one’s mind would consider “too stiff/constraining” or among the radical Marxist/Leninist/Maoist set, “too f&'n bourgeois.”
What’s more ironic is most of them came from backgrounds where they were taught such dining/social etiquette rules…and sometimes to extremes. Probable reason why they were so vehement about rebelling against such norms when I met them as undergrad classmates.
- I'm of the view this bit of decorum can be discarded with a clean conscience the instance the host allows him/herself to air his/her political or other controversial views while using such decorum to effectively have a silenced captive audience. IMO and on the principle of reciprocity, the host must also abide by his/her part of the decorum bit....
And don’t miss the young and rather plump Elizabeth McGovern in a couple of 1980s movies; Ordinary People with Timothy Hutton and Ragtime with James Cagney.
Loved, loved, loved The Manners of Downton Abbey! What was that thread abt your dream part-time job? Being the historical advisor to DA just shot up to the top of my list!
Yes, Edith’s child looks older (as do Mary and Tom’s children), but you have to remember that I think two years have passed since last season. They didn’t pick back up from where last season ended.
Watching that special makes me more thankful that I live in the 21st century where it’s a historical curiosity. Actually living it every day would be one long unmitigated nightmare for me…
That is…unless I can be a random young lad who organizes a group to raid their dinner parties, consume all the food/spirits, and run from the local Territorial Army units called up to chase us off. 
Marigold, Violet, Daisy… is Pansy next? I actually like these names and didn’t realize they were in use in the Edwardian era.
^ I don’t think so. They suggest Poppy or Posy instead.
http://nameberry.com/babyname/Pansy
I have a cousin Hyacinth. Always have loved that name.
That is my problem, too. Even if she doesn’t know Downton’s set of “manners”, she should know to be polite when one is a guest.
I’m not so sure. To give a current-day analogy, if you (or one of your college-age children) were invited to a dinner party, say, by a roommate or boyfriend/girlfriend, at that person’s parent’s mansion, and the host and guests started talking about blacks or Jews using offensive language, would you want your child to speak up? I would want my child to do so.
Class warfare at the time was a life-or-death matter–malnutrition was common and there were very few jobs that protected life and limb like the jobs at Downton and some (not all) similar estates. Miss Bunting was standing up for what she believed, as did Tom before he was somewhat co-opted.
The analogy above doesn’t hold up in the case of Sunday’s episode. Lord Grantham didn’t use any offensive or racist language or it’s equivalent at the table (and face it, EVERYBODY was what we today would consider racist/bigoted in that period, including the Marxists). The Bunting character is simply a smug boor (mother would have called her a “pill”) which is not attractive or admirable in any context, even if you agree with her sentiments.
As for Branson, I didn’t like him at all before Sybil’s death. He behaved childishly and impulsively and certainly didn’t treat Sybil very well after their marriage. He only began to grow on me after he became a single father and began to mature. If he reverts to his former style of “standing up for what he believes”, then I hope the Granthams get custody of Sybbie before that awful Bunting woman gets her hands on her.
I push/pull on Bunting. I could see the conflict with Granthams from a mile away. Also am sure Baxter stole for a “good” reason rather than greed.
All caught up.
So the picture that lady Edith was looking at was it Gregson (as a baby?) or Marigold??? And will she have lost it/or have it discovered under her pillow when the fire clean up happens?
I assumed it was Marigold, but the thought of it being discovered during the cleanup never occured to me. That could make for some interesting action.
He and those who have been accustomed to their worldview would likely be oblivious to offensive language/views on areas ranging from aristocratic entitlements/hierarchies to socio-economic perspectives. Even so, they’re still responsible for them and like actual history…they were being called out for it even at dinner tables. Sometimes by younger generations of their very family like Sybill.
The reason why Branson and Bunting seem very blunt about their views is that some of their views were very radical for their time and there was a serious contestation between those representing the old aristocratic socio-economic order(Lord Grantham) and those representing the then or sometimes even still radical views on areas ranging from social equality to questioning aristocratic privilege and the aristocratic and laissez-faire capitalist economic order then prevalent in Britain coming into vogue among the younger or more open-minded freethinkers of the era.
In some ways, whether they’re seen as boorish or not has been discussed in similar such situations as a litmus test of whether one was sympathetic to the old aristocratic order or more for the modern age of greater social equality where being an aristocrat didn’t command nearly as much political power, wealth, and prestige as it did back then.
Keep in mind that during the closing days of WWI into the 20s and 30s, this questioning and even acting on it was becoming more widespread in many parts of Europe. The Bolshevik takeover of the Kerensky government in Russia in 1918 and the brief communist takeover in Hungary in 1919 under Bela Kun were two extreme examples of that which terrified aristocratic societies and wealthy upper/upper-middle class elites around the world.
Branson and Bunting are just two representatives of the questioning and agitating of the old order which was very common among folks of their origin SES back in the '20s. And they weren’t even as radical as they could have been.
If anything, Bunting would have fit in very well with the zeitgeist of the more radical American Revolutionaries back in 1775 who felt there should be no special privileges or recognition for being an aristocrat.
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NOT EVERYBODY was racist/bigoted in that period just like NOT EVERYBODY during the antebellum period was pro-Slavery.
For instance, abolitionists were vehemently anti-slavery and vocal about it even when it resulted in social ostracism from mainstream society and even ongoing harassment/violence against them. They may have been a minority, but they did exist, nonetheless…
Moreover, the questioning of aristocratic hierarchies/privileges isn’t even new for Downton’s period historically. During the enlightenment period of the 18th century and extending through the French Revolution, even some aristocrats like Marquis de Lafayette were openly questioning such concepts more than a century BEFORE Downton Abbey takes place. It was a reason why he ended up getting jailed by Austrians* for being a radical associated with the Revolution which overthrew the French monarchy.
The French Revolution also had a conservative reactionary effect on British elite society. The etiquette special by the historical adviser to the show makes references to this when discussing the cultivation of the “British reserve” among the aristocratic/upper classes.
- They were part of the alliance which eventually restored the Bourbons back on the throne after defeating Napoleon twice...including at the Battle of Waterloo.
So what is the deal with the adoptive father/fire fighter. That conversation out in the yard after the fire seemed a bit weird and menacing to me.
I was speculating that he is seeing his wife get really attached to Marigold and wants to make sure there is no risk in Edith deciding to snatch the baby away from her unexpectedly.
Gee, thanks for the history lesson Cobrat. I had NO idea that abolitionists existed 8-|
Not that it has any relevance to the series we/re discussing but just because abolitionists opposed slavery (mainly on biblical grounds; a great many of them were devout Quakers) doesn’t mean that they considered African slaves to be their equals in all ways. Their anti-slavery convictions don’t mean that their personal beliefs wouldn’t be considered racist in today’s context. I doubt they would have supported inter-racial marriage.
You do seem to persist in thinking that rudeness to people’s faces is some sort of courageous social statement so perhaps you watch DA through that prism. Personally, I don’t think that progressive political beliefs require the holder of those beliefs to lack good manners. I suppose I could be wrong but nevertheless I stand by my strong dislike for the (fortunately) fictional Emma Bunting character. Rudeness at your host’s dinner table, at an important family celebration (Grantham’s wedding anniversary) is never justifiable. What on earth is she teaching the kids at the school?
The biggest problem with Bunting’s attitude and actions is that they’re counterproductive. Rudeness to someone’s face is rarely an effective tactic to get that person to see your point of view. Or to get anything to change, no matter how righteous her cause.
^^Exactly my point. This kind of behavior is just cheap and self-indulgent, while allowing her to feel superior to her hosts… Of course, Branson is not the sharpest tool in the box so it will very likely be successful in winning his heart. Poor Sybbie.
Why on earth would she accept the invitation, given her views?