Interesting about the take on Barrow. When mary was in his room with George, what struck me most was how alike they are, Barrow outing the former maid and Mary outing her sister. Barrow’s action was despicable, so was Mary’s. What Lordship said to barrow after that applies equally to Mary.
In those days in that culture, being gay would not have prevented the marquess from getting married and trying for an heir. So Bertie’s chances of inheriting the title were probably thought to have been pretty low.
For example, there’s likely some fourth or fifth cousin twice removed (or whatever) who would be heir to Lord Grantham (or to baby George, after Grantham’s death) if anything were to happen to baby George. But I’m sure that person is not counting their chickens.
I thought Edith told her dad she knew but that it had been such a non issue since the other guy was in his thirties, they hadn’t given it a lot of consideration.
“Didn’t people in that day and of that class study Debrett’s Peerage in detail. I don’t think people of that class would have been surprised that Bertie Pelham was now the Marquis of Hexham.”
Heck, Matthew was quite surprised when he, himself, turned out to be the heir to the Grantham title and estate after the Titanic sank. He was apparently completely unaware that he was only two heirs away from the title.
Other comments:
Carson is just being Carson. He has always been obsessed with avoiding and suppressing any hint of scandal or shame on the Grantham family name. Thus, his reluctance to allow Robert and Cora to be seen at an establishment that was currently getting bad press as a rumored place of illicit assignations. Hard on Mrs. Patmore for sure, but the interests of the family come first. Fortunately, Robert and Cora had a clearer view of the situation and knew that no scandal would result.
It would be hard for the ending of the Mary to feel anything other than rushed. In true soap fashion, Fellowes has woven a very complicated tale. But he is running out of episodes. No time left to do much more than just wave the magic wand make them live happily ever after.
Also in true soap fashion there are many other plot lines that dragged on too long. Some were never resolved and just faded away. Some were resolved too easily and neatly. And some are going to run smack into the end of the series and thus will stop, resolved or not.
I’m another who doesn’t believe Barrow’s transformation from mustachio-twirling villain into tortured sympathetic gay guy. This is the person who blackmailed several other servants, who tried to run a black market food business, who kidnapped Isis, who sleazed his way out of combat, who lorded over other servants during the war. He made a lot of peoples’ lives a misery, and suddenly we are supposed to feel sorry for him?
Like Tom said to Mary, “You’re a coward. Like all bullies you’re a coward”. It goes for Thomas too.
“Didn’t people in that day and of that class study Debrett’s Peerage in detail. I don’t think people of that class would have been surprised that Bertie Pelham was now the Marquis of Hexham.”
Heck, Matthew was quite surprised when he, himself, turned out to be the heir to the Grantham title and estate after the Titanic sank. He was apparently completely unaware that he was only two heirs away from the title.
Well, that’s just a fiction following a fiction.
In real life at that time, I think those who were due to inherit were very well aware. And the line of succession would be published in Burke’s or Debrett’s. These were people who studied bloodlines in horses and people.
I think it was very purposeful to have Barrow’s storyline kind of run parallel to Mary’s. Her visit to him was the final realization that they were alike and she had truly messed up.
I am curious about inheritance. Edit inherits from someone who is not related to her. And didn’t Matthew end up saving the day with money he inherited from dead fiancée? Yet daughters couldn’t inherit. Of course the episodes sometimes cover such a huge number of years that I guess things change.
“I’m another who doesn’t believe Barrow’s transformation from mustachio-twirling villain into tortured sympathetic gay guy…”
Same can be said for Tom. He was a guy who hated the English, especially the aristocracy. He hung out with bomb-throwing Irish terrorists, participated in a riot that resulted in the death of innocents, tried to disrupt Lord Grantham’s dinner party by throwing filthy slop on an honored guest. And got a daughter of the house involved in some of these criminal acts.
And now he is warmly loved, both by the Crawleys and by many on this board, as perhaps the best member of the family. Seduced by the wealth and luxury I guess, in a very short time he evolved from Irish Revolutionary to English Aristocrat. And the entire Crawley family seems to have no memory whatsoever of his prior ways.
So viewed from the history of Tom’s transformation, Barrow’s transformation does not seem quite so unlikely. Give the show one more season and I’m sure everyone here would be loving Barrow just as they now do Tom.
Thomas truly has been reprehensible, but last week he did seem to acknowledge that he had no one to blame but himself. Mary, otoh, doesn’t seem to have had such a realization about her behavior being truly terrible and inexcusable. It appears that she’s sorry, but even when Edith came back, it seemed that Edith was the one who had some perspective on it, while Mary didn’t express similar feelings. She may have them, but she didn’t show it.
"Heck, Matthew was quite surprised when he, himself, turned out to be the heir to the Grantham title and estate after the Titanic sank. He was apparently completely unaware that he was only two heirs away from the title.
Well, that’s just a fiction following a fiction.
In real life at that time, I think those who were due to inherit were very well aware. And the line of succession would be published in Burke’s or Debrett’s. These were people who studied bloodlines in horses and people."
It is possible that the family knew that Matthew was in line to inherit. It’s also possible that Matthew did not, if his father (or whoever the relative was) had completely cut himself off from the family - some did renounce their titles and wealth, after all. Matthew may have had no idea; he studied neither bloodlines in horses or people.
@scmom12 - women could inherit in England at this time, but they couldn’t inherit anything “entailed”. Only aristocrats have entailed property and not all of it is entailed (the physical building is always entailed). When it is, it is reserved for the next male heir which is Matthew’s son. The fact that he’s also Mary’s son is irrelevant. She is really only like a regent to guide Downton until Georgie comes of age. If something tragic were to happen to Georgie, Mary would likely end up having to move out of Downton.
Gregson’s wealth would not have been entailed at all. I remember them saying that he left it all to Edith, but I wonder if there were some laws protecting his institutionalized wife. Maybe he had already made provisions for her, maybe he had gotten divorced before he was killed.
P.S. For more about the angst and drama that comes with entailed property and the rights of women, see just about every Jane Austen book!
@Scipio Tom lost some of his taste for the revolutionary life after he witnessed them burning a great house with a family still in it. And he did say when he came back from Boston that he had changed his mind about capitalism after seeing the American version of it.
@CAMidwestMom I do think Mary is sorry in her way. But since she’s so emotionally immature, she’s sorry because the whole thing made her look bad, not because she ruined Edith’s life.
“Tom lost some of his taste for the revolutionary life after he witnessed them burning a great house with a family still in it. And he did say when he came back from Boston that he had changed his mind about capitalism after seeing the American version of it.”
Right, but Tom had morphed into an English aristocrat long before he went off to Boston at the end of last season. And total amnesia of his revolutionary ways by everyone else in the household had set in long before that too.
It’s amazing what family history will be pushed aside when children are involved. I’ve seen plenty of real life examples of that.
Greenwitch – I don’t think the building is always entailed; it was possible for the peerage title and the property to go to two different people, but the strong tradition was for the property to be left to the peer. And the entail, if put in place by one generation, would ensure that was the case for the next generation (that the holder of the title would inherit the property). But it wouldn’t be automatic; the peer in the earlier generation would have had to “entailed” the property.
I remember in the first season when there was discussion about whether Robert could break the entail, Robert said something to the effect that he would want the next Earl to have the property.
In the US, at least, entails are now illegal and I believe that is the case in the UK, too.
I read a lot of 19th c novels. A common plot is the estate/title go one way and all the money another and the best solution is a marriage to get it back together.
Vita Sackville-West couldn’t inherit Knowles, the great house in which she grew up, but she was an heiress I’m pretty sure. I think it was her money that bought and restored Sissinghurst and created the gardens.
Am I remembering correctly that the surprise of Bertie Pelham’s inheritance/title was explained by the untimely death of his relative? I thought they said that was in his thirties and they did not expect him to pre-decease Bertie. Could have misheard, though.
No that is right, he was 39 and Bertie didn’t expect to inherit because he was so young.
" The fact that he’s also Mary’s son is irrelevant. She is really only like a regent to guide Downton until Georgie comes of age. If something tragic were to happen to Georgie, Mary would likely end up having to move out of Downton."
Not necessarily. Remember that Matthew bought into Downton with his inheritance, and Mary inherited from Matthew. She is actually part owner of the estate. George only inherits from Robert when the time comes.