<p>In February, I e-mailed Mary Doria Russell to tell her how much I enjoyed her book, “Thread of Grace”. Well, actually enjoyed is the wrong word because there were horrible things that happened to people but anyhow she wrote me back. Her e-mail to me was quite entertaining and she commented on things I had mentioned. So I was wondering, do we want to send her an e-mail to join our discussion after a while? By the way, her other books are fantastic. My daughter had to read The Sparrow for class and now it is one of her favorite books.</p>
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<p>That would be exciting! I’ll have to be careful to say only nice things. ;)</p>
<p>Did you like A Thread of Grace better than Dreamers of the Day?</p>
<p>Here is an interview with Mary Doria Russell about Dreamers of the Day. (It was printed in the back of my edition–not sure if the rest of you have it.)</p>
<p>[Dreamers</a> of the Day by Mary Doria Russell - Hardcover - Random House - Author Interview](<a href=“http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400064717&view=auqa]Dreamers”>http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400064717&view=auqa)</p>
<p>I did like Thread of Grace better. It has to do with the Jews in Italy during WWII and I was just sort of sucked into the book. Such tragic times. But I did like Dreamers of the Day. Both times I learned some historical things I didn’t know about. I really enjoy her writing style. I also enjoyed The Sparrow and Children of God. Those two books were very different. They both on the surface appear to be Sci fi but they really aren’t. They just are using the setting as a vehicle.</p>
<p>One of the answers from your link Mary- very interesting
RCT: In a previous interview, you discuss T. E. Lawrence’s influence on you as a writer and researcher. Was Dreamers of the Day an opportunity to pay homage to his influence on your life? </p>
<p>MDR: Oh, yes. Like so many boomers, I saw Lawrence of Arabia in 1962 when it was first released and when we were young teenagers. I’m not quite sure why–I really wish some psychologist would explain this–but that movie had a tremendous effect on many of us. I read Seven Pillars of Wisdom when I was too young to understand it, really, and all the biographies. </p>
<p>Lawrence became a sort of third parent during my adolescence. My mother was steel. My father was heart. Lawrence was scholarship. He widened my world and made it seem like a good idea to study foreign languages and get outside my own culture. Heady stuff for a girl growing up in Lombard, Illinois.
Lawrence was a working archaeologist in his early twenties, and that sparked my interest in the field I got my doctorate in. I ended up as a paleoanthropologist, though–I interpreted material that archaeologists dug up. It was indoor work, with no heavy lifting. </p>
<p>And the languages–what an impact that influence had! For one thing, while I was working on the Krapina Neandertal collection in Zagreb, my husband and I were permitted to adopt our son, Daniel, in part because I had studied Croatian. So Lawrence even made me a mom! </p>
<p>Yes, it was lovely making friends with Neddy–even fictionally!</p>
<p>^
I agree! I am inspired to watch Lawrence of Arabia and perhaps even crack open the Seven Pillars of Wisdom. I wonder what he would think of the events of today? </p>
<p>I felt like I was reading two books. One was this coming of age story about a woman who “found herself” after her family was decimated by influenza.<br>
The other was story of the events post WWI through the Cairo conference and the creation of the Middle East.</p>
<p>Did anyone else think, “Hey, Agnes is going to Oberlin! I first heard about that school on CC!” ?</p>
<p>I enjoyed Dreamers very much. I’m going to try more by this author. </p>
<p>I found myself trying to fit Rosie into a metaphor, but couldn’t figure out if she was one. I guess she’s “just” a dog.</p>
<p>^ Doug Betsy: Yes, I thought, “Oberlin–CC Top Liberal Arts Colleges!” And then I thought, “Mary, you have really got to broaden your website horizons.” :)</p>
<p>As for Rosie, I’m an English major from way-back-when, and that dog must represent something! Let’s see…how about this: Rosie is the embodiment of Agnes’ defiant nature—a trait that she has suppressed her entire life. Rosie’s adoption underscores Agnes’ defiance of her mother; Rosie’s rejection at the Semiramis Hotel highlights Agnes’ defiance of cultural expectations; and Rosie’s love for Karl reflects Agnes’ defiance of social norms. In “acting out” what Agnes truly feels, Rosie directs Agnes’ fate in increasingly dramatic fashion, shaping her destiny in this world and beyond. Rosie’s actions not only determine Agnes’ direction in life (leading her to Lawrence and to Karl), but also in death—it is Rosie’s leap into the water that ultimately leads Agnes to purgatory on the banks of the Nile.</p>
<p>Well done, Mary! Your evaluation of Rosie gets an A+!</p>
<p>Back in the day, I could have stretched that into a five page paper. ;)</p>
<p>I second that A+ for Mary, very interesting discussion about little ole Rosie. I wondered about her name - ya’ think she could be named after Rosie the Riveter- certainly showed enough spunk. </p>
<p>I enjoyed the book, even the unique style and voice from the grave, although I felt the chapters from “heaven” were a bit too mystical after reading about the historical characters and events. </p>
<p>Here is my question for those of you who read this. I happen to share Russell’s view of the mid- east mess. Her goal seemed to put the British/ American smug attitude in historical context, and puts some blame on how the world arrived at such a crisis. </p>
<p>Were there any readers who didn’t like her religious or political views, who found her attitude too condescending? Just curious</p>
<p>I didn’t think of Russell’s writing as being condescending so much as didactic. At times, my eyes glazed over just a wee bit during certain conversations that were actually disguised history lessons. Not that I didn’t need the education–I am woefully ignorant about the history of the Mideast–but as a reader, I wanted more of Agnes’ personal story and more character exploration.</p>
<p>On the whole, the book left me feeling rather melancholy. There is no real satisfaction in either Agnes’ individual story or the greater story of the Middle East. In the end, both are left with unresolved issues; both are waiting for a savior.</p>
<p>Just a couple of thoughts on the book:</p>
<p>I thought the book contained an almost allegorical statement about American naivete, with Agnes standing in for America. She is a peripheral player while history is being made around her in Cairo. Most Americans, I think, do not really understand what it is like to be continuously immersed in the influence of a thousand years (or thousands of years) of history in a single spot. In a way, everything is “new” to us–with tragic implications for decision-making in the past decade. </p>
<p>The book is also a “coming of age” story in rather strange way, since the chief character is about 40 at the time. But it is then that she experiences a belated breaking-loose from “Mumma’s” influence, even as she is not yet fully adult. I’m not sure whether this also has allegorical content. </p>
<p>I have to admit that it was eye-opening to me to consider the role of decisions on the Middle East made by the European powers and particularly the British, in the immediate post-WWI period–eye-opening, despite the fact that my spouse starts most analyses with a disquisition on the influence of the Treaty of Tilsit. (Aside: “Blank it, Jim, I’m a scientist and not an historian.”)</p>
<p>The book put the losses of WWI in a different perspective for me, and bore them in more closely. In particular, I was moved by Russell’s allusion to the loss of 60,000 men in a single day of battle at the Somme, as she placed that in juxtaposition to the loss of approximately 55,000 in Vietnam over the full course of that war, and as I viewed it in the light of the as-yet incomplete American recovery from the Vietnam war. This, however, made me very skeptical that Woodrow Wilson, had he been in full health, could have shifted the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles very far. The list of countries that might have had self-determination, if Wilson had been successful, made me draw in a sharp breath, even so. </p>
<p>I think there may have been a whole “cadre” of American school teachers–single, middle-aged women–who traveled the world solo in that era, or close to it. We have at least two in our family. They were unlike Agnes, but I thought that she was drawn fully enough that she might have been an acquaintance of theirs.</p>
<p>I also liked a feature of the book that I might call its incidental connectivity. For instance, there was a mention of the British scientist Weizmann, who developed a new means of preparing acetone (I think that was it). This is almost certainly the Weizmann for whom the Weizmann Institute is named.</p>
<p>Does anyone know whether Churchill took action to help specific individuals flee Germany?</p>
<p>I am intending to read the biography of Gertrude Bell (Queen of the Desert, Shaper of Nations) next, because I am not at all clear on her role in Iraq at the beginning of the 20th century.</p>
<p>Oh, and a couple of questions:<br>
What was your reaction to Karl as a character?
Has anyone been in Jerusalem lately, to comment on the presence or absence of the “sham” relics mentioned in the book?
What is your view on “memory” of people (especially relatives) you have never met, but to whom you feel connected?
Was anyone else reminded of the Wislawa Szymborska poem that ends with “The children feel sorry for Napoleon”?
Anyone from Cleveland?</p>
<p>Quantmech, so many interesting observations and questions! Where to begin? For starters…</p>
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<p>In his biography, “Churchill and the Jews: A Lifelong Friendship,” Martin Gilbert writes of Churchill’s determination to rescue people from the horrors of the Holocaust.</p>
<p>If this link works, you should be able to read excerpts from chapter 19, “Seeking to Save Jews”:</p>
<p>[Churchill</a> and the Jews: A Lifelong … - Google Books](<a href=“Churchill and the Jews: A Lifelong Friendship - Martin Gilbert - Google Books”>Churchill and the Jews: A Lifelong Friendship - Martin Gilbert - Google Books)</p>
<p>Gilbert writes: “Among their requests, Weizmann and Shertok appealed to the Allies to bomb the railway lines leading from Budapest to Auschwitz, along which it was suddenly clear that several hundred thousand Hungarian Jews had been, and were still being, transported to their deaths. Churchill’s response was immediate, and positive: ‘Get anything out of the Air Force you can,’ he wrote to Eden, 'and invoke me if necessary.’” </p>
<p>It seems–at least from Gilbert’s account–that Churchill repeatedly took action to assist Jews who were desperately attempting, as Churchill put it, “ to escape from the butcheries to which their fellow countrymen were doomed.” I don’t know, however, if he became personally involved in any single individual’s rescue, such as the type Agnes requested on behalf of Karl’s family.</p>
<p>Is this the poem you mean?</p>
<p>Napoleon</p>
<p>by Miroslav Holub</p>
<p>Children, when was
Napoleon Bonaparte born,
asks teacher.</p>
<p>A thousand years ago, the children say.
A hundred years ago, the children say.
Last year, the children say.
No one knows.</p>
<p>Children, what did
Napoleon Bonaparte do,
asks teacher.</p>
<p>Won a war, the children say.
Lost a war, the children say.
No one knows.</p>
<p>Our butcher had a dog
called Napoleon,
says Frantisek.
The butcher used to beat him and the dog died
of hunger
a year ago.</p>
<p>And all the children are now sorry
for Napoleon.</p>
<p>[Napoleon</a> by Miroslav Holub : The Poetry Foundation [poem] : Find Poems and Poets. Discover Poetry.](<a href=“http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=181465]Napoleon”>Napoleon by Miroslav Holub | Poetry Foundation)</p>
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<p>How imperfectly all of us—children and adults alike—understand and interpret history!</p>
<p>Yes, thanks, that is the poem! (mis-remembered the poet)</p>
<p>QuantMech, very interesting comments.
As fate would have it, I happened upon a Booknotes Interview within the last two weeks, of Brian Lamb interviewing Allis and Ronald Rodash talking about their new book, A Safe Haven: Harry S. Truman and the Founding of Israel. The book is the story of President Truman and his decision to have the United States recognize the State of Israel.
Here is that link to Booknotes
<a href=“http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&cPath=6_32&products_id=287514-1[/url]”>http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&cPath=6_32&products_id=287514-1</a></p>
<p>They told this story about Weizman’s role - you will find it interesting, I did, and when Russell mentioned Weizman in her book, I recalled what I had just heard two days earlier.
From another web site referencing the story I heard:</p>
<p>"Probably the most important thing he (Jacobson) did was opening the door to Chaim Weizmann into the White House to talk to Truman. Weizmann was very convincing and important in dealing with Truman and making his case to him about why he should support a Jewish state,” Allis Radosh said.</p>
<p>“When there was a dispute about the Negev desert, Weizmann saw Truman after Eddie persuaded him.”</p>
<p>Finally, during the run-up to the United Nations vote on partitioning Palestine, the Radoshes say, Truman got fed up with “Zionist extremists” who, in their eagerness to convince him, sometimes disrespected the president.</p>
<p>That was when Eddie’s finest hour occurred.</p>
<p>The convincer</p>
<p>“He was very instrumental at the end, when the State Department was trying to scuttle partition at the U.N.,” said Ronald Radosh. “When it looked like it was all going to go down the tubes, one person was able to convince Truman to chart a steady course, and that was Weizmann. Although Truman didn’t want to see any Zionists, B’nai B’rith called Jacobson in the middle of night and said ‘Charter a plane; come to Washington and convince Truman to see Weizmann.’ ” He does and convinces Truman to see Weizmann. … Weizmann’s wife said that was the most important thing he did.”</p>
<p>After Israel’s War of Independence, he said, Jacobson “became the actual liaison between the White House and the Jewish Agency and the new state. He was an informal ambassador.”</p>
<p>I have pencilled my copy and passed it on to my son’s fiance. They are out tonight so I reread the section on Jerusalem and “the shams.” On my last trip to Israel, I spent a couple of weeks in Jerusalem several years ago when my son had to visit the Hadassah Medical Center. I scrawled the note mid-page 187 "Jerusalem is a city of tribes, everyone wears distinguishing badges."I consider it the most amazing city on the planet apart from the sham. It’s not Paris or London by any means or San Francisco. It is one big day after day mardi gras. Everyone is at the daily party to celebrate their understanding of god and the universe. The costume each wears represents their sect, their understanding. The biggest sham though it is funny, is the Elvis Presley museum on the road into town, media icon of the 20th century. But the props are everywhere. Who cares if they are real. They are representative. </p>
<p>Up in the mountains near the Hadassah, is a village, Ein Kerim where Mary went to the well with Elizabeth, where John the Baptist was born. It is old, with a great restaurant called the Friendship Cafe. It is a beautiful and forested village. Jerusalem is in the mountains.</p>
<p>Palestine is beautiful and so I was dismayed at the description of stones and desolation. Methinks the author has never visited in the springtime. Though the television images are real, they only show a small part. But then you have to appreciate the nuances of a dry/wet climate like the eastern mediterranean. (“The irony is that Palestine is such a desolation and yet so many have desired to possess it.”) You have to appreciate the nuances of place and people.</p>
<p>I worked with a lady whose great auntie was the teacher of Lawrence, for arabic that is. Her husband, my teacher friend, was from Jerusalem. His family had been there since the 12th century and he is Palestinian arab christian. His family left during the troubles and they were terribly vindictive towards Israel. Unfortunate for his sons for they had an international education and the anger of their father. So you see, it is not easy to create stereotypes or one size fits all. Memory is all important though.</p>
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</p>
<p>Apparently, the author has never visited at all. She relied on “a big pile of traveler’s memoirs from the first three decades of the 20th century.”</p>
<p>[Mary</a> Doria Russell - Authors - Random House](<a href=“Mary Doria Russell | Penguin Random House”>Mary Doria Russell | Penguin Random House)</p>
<p>I’ve never been to the Holy Land, but the passage in the Dreamers of the Day about “shams” reminded me of Lourdes (which I visited a couple of times, many years ago). There is all sorts of kitsch for sale on the streets—plastic St. Bernadette in a snow globe, that sort of thing—but once you enter the grounds of the Sanctuary, the feeling changes to one of prayer, peace and respectful devotion.</p>