Dreamers of the Day – July CC Summer Book Selection

<p>Back to one of QuantMech’s comments: </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I found another interview with Mary Russell that indicates Agnes’ relationship with her mother has a strong autobiographical component.</p>

<p>Russell says: </p>

<p>“The one great failure in my life was my relationship with my mother. She was a silent and opaque person who worked very hard to be above reproach. She relentlessly said and did all the correct things, but it seemed forced and, ultimately, counterfeit. Every moment with her vibrated with cognitive dissonance. What I saw and heard never matched up with the emotion I sensed.</p>

<p>"I was never able to break through the glassy, reflective surface Mom kept polished, not even at the end of her life when I was at her side constantly while she slowly died of ovarian cancer. All of the passages about Agnes going through her dead mother’s estate were directly from my life, by the way, which helped me process the experience.”</p>

<p>[Loaded</a> Questions with Kelly Hewitt: Loaded Questions: Interview with Mary Doria Russell, Author of “Dreamers of the Day”](<a href=“http://www.loaded-questions.com/2008/03/loaded-questions-interview-with-mary.html]Loaded”>http://www.loaded-questions.com/2008/03/loaded-questions-interview-with-mary.html)</p>

<p>Not surprised that Russell drew on her own life experiences with her own mother, because that relationship was quite well developed and convincing in the book. Good background info, Mary. </p>

<p>I enjoyed the “coming of age” aspect and Agnes’s personal transformation, and found it all convincing. </p>

<p>One of Quant Mech’s questions was our feeling about Karl. The author tried so hard to portray him as a “good” guy, but he always seemed like a cad, and I didn’t trust or like him much. I remain very conflcted about that character, and interesting you would ask, Quant Mech.</p>

<p>What did you think Quant Mech , and others about Karl? </p>

<p>Also, 60, 000 dead at a battle of Somme. How many of us knew this?
And. what about the reference to 250.000 Australians injured or died in WW1? I can’t locate the book to quote the page, did anyone note this?
Such a waste. This is what made me melancholy about the book, Mary13.
War, and it’s devastation…so it goes.</p>

<p>LOL, I should do the research first, (and, having the book in hand might help)
From Wiki- I am stunned at the number of deaths and injured- Wow…
[World</a> War I casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties]World”>World War I casualties - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>—from Wiki link
Australia WW1 -stats 61,928 (milatary deaths)
1.38% (Deaths as %of population) 152,171 (wounded )
US 117,465 (military deaths) 757 (civilian Deaths)<br>
0.13% (deaths as % of population)
205,690 (wounded) </p>

<p>Grand total of all countries
9,721,937 Military deaths
6,821,248 civilian deaths
16,543,185 total deaths
1.75% (deaths as % of worlds population)
21,228,813 (wounded)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>SJChessMom, I remember the allusion to Gallipoli in the book, although my knowledge of the campaign is limited pretty much to what I recall from the Peter Weir movie of the same name. </p>

<p>I went to Wikipedia to gather some basic facts about the loss of life at Gallipoli–and war and its devastation really hit home when I read this passage:</p>

<p>“Years after the war, mass graves of the deceased were being re-opened for identity determination and for carrying the soldiers to their final resting places. During this relocation for cemeteries, bodies of two men were found bayoneting each other and locked together. They were identified as 1st lieutenant Mustafa Asım from 6th Company of the 57th regiment and Captain J. L. Woiters from British Corps. They had fallen in a position where Mustafa Asım was holding the cross on Woiters’ neck and Woiters was holding an amulet of Quran on Asım’s neck. They were re-buried together. Their name tags and weapons were handed to authorities.”</p>

<p>I don’t know how true it is—such a story sounds almost apocryphal—but it’s a powerful image, nonetheless.</p>

<p>[Gallipoli</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli]Gallipoli”>Gallipoli - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>My turn to bring book suggestions to my book club for next month on tuesday. I have not read any of the above posts since I have not started the book. Is this one worth suggesting?</p>

<p>mom60, I’d say Dreamers of the Day is definitely worth reading, but what is the “personality” of your book club? The book is well-written and thoroughly researched, and has an interesting historical backdrop and some intriguing characters. It might not have universal appeal, however, because first of all, it is historical fiction (set primarily in Cairo in 1921) and much of the dialogue is of a political/historical nature; and secondly, it isn’t a “feel-good” book—it’s a story told amidst war, politics, and government intrigue, with characters whose fates are not always satisfying or fair (in that way, like real life, I guess).</p>

<p>Finally finished the book.
Re Karl - I didn’t like him and couldn’t give you a real reason, but felt I must have missed something that Agnes saw; my gut was borne out in the end.</p>

<p>Karl was something of an enigma to me. Charming, yes, I suppose, but how charming is a man–really–who cheats so easily on his wife? The implication was that he was doing it (literally :)) to be kind–a thoughtful gesture to help Agnes on her journey of self-discovery. All I have to say is I hope my husband is never so accommodating to others!</p>

<p>mominva-( Spoiler alert)- I suspect you felt as though I did, relieved when Agnes miscarried Karl’s baby! </p>

<p>But, Mary, I disagree about this not being a “feel good” book. I found Agnes’s spunk, making her way during a difficult era, very uplifting.
The author’s intent, and message about the origins of the present day Mid East boundaries, proved most enriching, and frustrating in light of the mess it is in today. </p>

<p>I would highly recommend this for a bookgroup, and intend to do that for our club. It is important in the same way that I will be forever changed by 1,000 Splendid Suns. Dreamers was a much more pleasant journey to take! Yes, do recommend it. It should spark some discussion (always a good thing, right) </p>

<p>Other opinions ?</p>

<p>SJCM- I was actually torn by the miscarriage. I was saddened for the loneliness of Agnes’ return to Ohio. I thought the child would be the manifest reality of her ‘coming of age’ journey. The book ended much too quickly after that.</p>

<p>Did I miss something early on about it being written from the afterlife? I found that aspect to be unnecessary and the actual references to current events a bit insulting. I think the author could have trusted us to make the parallels.</p>

<p>Great analyses everyone - you all are a lot smarter than I.
Mary13 - In Karl, I was beginning to think you had something for books about affairs with illicit German soldiers ;)</p>

<p>I don’t think the affair with Karl is far-fetched at all. Go visit the Spy Museum - you will see that spy’s have used sex to get information for ages. Agnes was clearly ripe for a relationship and I could see her falling for anyone who would pay attention to her.</p>

<p>A few observations:</p>

<p>There are a few hints here and there that the book is being “written” by Agnes after her death. The very opening line: “I suppose I ought to warn you at the outset that my present circumstances are puzzling, even to me.” Another, fairly early in the first chapter: "My brief obituary would be written by a bored young newspaper man in 1957: ‘Agnes Shanklin, heiress, dead at 76, after a long illness.’ " Then, after she has rescued Rosie from the Nile, a stronger clue: “Ever since that morning, alive and dead, I have gone over and over those few weeks in Egypt.” I think that the first two are ambiguous, on first reading. The opening line could have meant anything. The reference to the obituary did seem slightly weird to me, when I first read it, but the “would” could be taken as merely prospective, in the imagination. The “alive and dead, I have gone . . .” is pretty clear-cut, but it’s also quite near the end of the book–not sure whether there is a clear indication any earlier.</p>

<p>Toward the beginning, Russell mentioned “sixty thousand men killed in a single day of combat.” I believe that was the Somme, though I filled that in.</p>

<p>I actually wasn’t sure that Agnes had a miscarriage. At the beginning of Part 3, “Of course it is not always easy for a woman of forty to conceive. What might seem a significant delay can be a mere irregularity. Before the steamer reached New York, I learned that I was no longer pregnant, if indeed I ever had been.” This might be intended to be left uncertain. Or it might be that the reader is supposed to decide one way or the other, based on the rest of the book–perhaps specifically the reference to Lillian’s daughter, who died shortly after birth.</p>

<p>The affair with Karl was difficult for me to react to emotionally in the way that I think one was intended to react. I may have been reading the novel a little too much with the spy-thriller expectation that Agnes would reveal something of catastrophic import to Karl. So in that sense, the end of the affair with the leap into the Nile seemed anticlimactic. I think it was difficult for me to appreciate Karl’s importance emotionally, although one has to, to really “get” the book. I can do it by analogy–if Agnes were someone I actually knew, then I would see the importance of Karl to her. But I didn’t really feel it directly. I think partly I was thrown off by Karl’s comment about Lawrence: " ‘I came to know him rather well . . .’ Suddenly, a cloud seemed to pass over him." Also, I couldn’t remember what exactly (if anything) Karl had said to Agnes about his wife, to make her conclude that she was “dead or discarded.” Perhaps it was just the tragic impact of the flu epidemic on her own family that made her leap to conclusions?</p>

<p>^ I think the “dead or discarded” was wishful thinking on Agnes’ part. She probably thought it was a possibility because foot-massaging Karl was clearly “courting” her. </p>

<p>In one of the interviews with Mary Russell, she mentioned that she wanted Agnes to narrate, but with a modern perspective. She couldn’t make Agnes still living, as she would be 127, so she had her speak from the afterlife. Russell admits it was an unusual choice. She says, “So rather than deny Agnes her voice or introduce a biological impossibility, I wound up writing a novel with a dead narrator. 
It’s not like I thought, Hey! Magical realism might be a good career move after a Holocaust novel. The style and genre were dictated by the main character.”</p>

<p>SJChessMom, I agree with you that Agnes was an admirable woman and it was good to see her transformation. Perhaps rather than saying the book isn’t “feel good,” I should have said “light-hearted”? The tone is so different from last month’s selection—Guernsey wasn’t exactly light-hearted, but despite some awful things that happened to the characters in that book, the steady flow of humor and simple good will made it a warmer story (to me). But on the flip side, that good cheer–and the way everything worked out so well–also made it a less complex, less realistic story than Dreamers. </p>

<p>I’m heading off on a camping trip later today, so unless the raccoons have wireless, I won’t be checking in until the end of the week–at which point it will be almost time to start reading Sarah’s Key. JustAMom, let’s hope there are no German lovers in our next selection…:)</p>

<p>Mary13 - good point about the “afterlife”. It was also a was to entertwine the names of folks who had been to Egypt and made an impact on the Middle East. I would like to think that Agnes eventually ran into Lawrence there.</p>

<p>Thanks so much for introducing me to these books! I have enjoyed reading and learning. I will run out to B&N and pick up Sarah’s Key tonight.
I am truly torn though as this weekend at a used bookstore I picked up a couple of books by Anita Shreve, one of my favorite authors. I need a week at the beach!</p>

<p>This is one of those books that I read very slowly so that I could force my brain to remember historical events that were learned so many moons ago! (As well as to learn many things I didn’t know!) I really enjoyed it. This was the first book I have read by this author and I will now pursue her other works. I am also intrigued with the Seven Pillars by T. E. Lawrence. That’s on a future “look into” list as well. </p>

<p>I am torn with the ending though. Part of me enjoyed reading from Agnes’ perspective from the afterlife, but part of me felt like that was a somewhat “forced” way of Russell adding more historical information to the book. Most of me didn’t feel like it totally “fit”, but then the very fact that it didn’t fit neatly into what is a usual ending says something for the book/author doesn’t it? :)</p>

<p>^^^ KandK I agree with everything you wrote. I , too, am interested in Russell’s other books after reading Dreamers. Also, read TE Lawrence’s websites for more background.Let us know if Seven Pillars is an interesting read.</p>

<p>Your thoughts about the “afterlife” chapter feeling forced is exactly how I felt. The novel took a turn, in that last chapter, which surprised me.</p>

<p>Mary- For my book club the host of the next month brings several books and we vote on what we would like to read. I brought both Sarah’s Key and Dreamers of the Day along with Olive Kitteridge. The vote was close but we will read Sarah’s Key. I have already read it but will read it again for both CC and real life book club. I will keep the copy of Dreamers of the Day I bought and put it in my to read pile.</p>

<p>Finally some time to add my 2 cents, after being away all last week, with no computer access. I’m somewhat torn about “Dreamers.” All in all I’d say it was an OK book. I learned a lot about a very specific period of history that was probably reduced to a few paragraphs in a HS textbook. The issue I have, however, is that it came across too much like a story line wrapped around the author’s research about this event in history. Almost as if she had done all this research and couldn’t let it “go to waste,” so came up with a main character and story to weave into it. Too much of it all seemed so forced, like pounding the square peg in the round hole. Speaking from the grave? Didn’t really work for me.</p>

<p>Also, did Agnes know Karl was a spy? I thought she did, or knew there was a very good chance he was. And yet she told him everything she had heard anyway? Why?</p>

<p>I really enjoyed the historical aspect of this book. It pushed me to learn more about Lawrence of Arabia (I even bought his book and is in the pile to be read). I also want to understand more of the historical basis of the problems of the Middle East. As I have mentioned on other threads, I really enjoy Mary Doria Russell’s books. I am looking forward to reading Sarah’s Key (although it sounds sad) while the discussion is going on. The last two books I had already read and it is hard to remember details.</p>

<p>I also appreciated being pushed to learn (re-learn) a little history. But even though I enjoyed the book, I don’t think it will stay with me…I feel the characters slipping away already. There are certain books that have characters I just can’t shake from my mind–they are so complex and so real–but Agnes and Karl aren’t in my top ten. (Now that would be a fun thread! Who are your most vivid and unforgettable literary characters?)</p>