Drunk on the LAC Kool-Aid!

Parents Forum
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<p>I was talking with my rising senior the other day about his college choices so far. He stated the our state flagship is a distant 3rd to two LACs on his list. When I asked why he stumbled a bit with a couple of lame reasons and then added that “besides if I go there everyone will think I’m dumb.” I couldn’t help but yell “What”! After all this is my alma mater he’s talking about.</p>

<p>He explained that this is the prevailing viewpoint at our local high school, which btw is one of the best in the state. We live in a small college town that is dominated by the local LAC. And many of the kids who graduate from our HS attend this LAC or others like it.</p>

<p>So I’m just wondering if this attitude is a by-product of our area or if it is now more or less universal. I grew up in a large city and lived in another large city until 10 years ago and didn’t get this sentiment until moving here.</p>

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<p>Personally I think a LAC is the way to go. They give more personal attention and you have far more opportunities to shine then you do at mega University. Medical schools are moving toward wanting a more LA focused education with their revised MCAT, employers want to see more diversity in classwork for new grads, etc. It is also far easier to graduate from a LAC in 4 years than at Mega U.</p>

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<p>I’ve always hated that ‘drinking the Kool-aid’ expression. It seems a way to put down opinions that are different from one’s own. But no, in our area most kids go to the bigger schools, not LAC’s. I guess around here they drink the big school Kool-aid?</p>

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<p>Here you go: [Where</a> Professors Send Their Children to College - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244508/where-professors-send-their-children-to-college/]Where”>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244508/where-professors-send-their-children-to-college/)</p>

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<p>LACs have their virtues, but they also have disadvantages – including the limited availability of career-oriented majors. These colleges are, after all, primarily focused on the liberal arts, although some of them offer a few other majors. There are plenty of other threads on these boards that point out that in today’s job market, finding a job after graduation is even more difficult for liberal arts majors than for those who majored in more “practical” subjects. </p>

<p>Of course, immediate job opportunities are not an issue for students who will go into a Ph.D. program or enroll in law or medical school right after graduation. But students’ plans change along the way. A lot of kids who start out with one of these paths in mind end up doing other things.</p>

<p>Much also depends on what state you live in. If you lived in Virginia or North Carolina (which obviously you do not), no one would call your son dumb if he went to the flagship state university. UVa and UNC-Chapel Hill are outstanding universities, and a lot of out-of-staters would gladly give up a few body parts to be admitted to either of them. But in some other states, the flagship state university is, well, a bit uninspiring.</p>

<p>[Edited to add: One of my kids went to our flagship state university – which is not UVa or UNC – and then got a master’s degree at another state university. The other went to a large private university. Both had good college experiences. Both graduated on time. Both have good jobs.]</p>

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<p>In most of the country, hardly anyone has heard of most LACs, so I think that the attitude you are describing is far from universal. But in most of the country, most people hear about colleges and universities primarily through their sports teams, which has little or no relation to their educational quality. Living in a relatively small town with a LAC will naturally raise the awareness of LACs.</p>

<p>Most education professionals and graduate schools are well aware of LACs, in contrast to the average person on the street. I’m a big fan of LACs. Depending on the kid, their learning style and the program they are interested in I would recommend the top LACs over most top universities. Every case is different, however. For the young person who is likely to be able to and want to take graduate level classes as an undergraduate a LAC may be too restrictive. Ditto for those who are interested in majors or programs not offered at most LACs.</p>

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<p>Marian–I totally disagree that LAC have limited majors and “focus” on Liberal Arts. There isn’t a single major that you can’t get at the LAC’s our kids are considering. Most LAC offer options to build your own major. Students are even able to get an engineering degree or at least get a start on one if they want. My alma matter sent 100% of their med school candidates on to medical school last year and averages around98% overall. It also has one of the highest pass rates for CPA exams in the nation. Every program we have looked at for med school for our DD, the LACs have a far higher placement rate then the state universities, including our flagship. Just because you are at a LAC doesn’t mean you major in liberal arts??? I don’t understand why you think that.</p>

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<p>Many people in rural areas are afraid and intimidated by the state universities…the size, intellectual snobbiness, sex, drugs, drinking, etc. They automatically think that any LAC is better than the state flagships despite the fact that in general, most LACs attract a lower quality student than the flagships (just look at the ACT ranges at the LACs in iowa, almost all are below the flagships). Their kids often reflect this bias. I know, I grew up in a small town.</p>

<p>At my son’s high school, many of the best go to state flagships. No one thinks less of them.</p>

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<p>Architecture? Materials science? Animal science? Nursing? Really?</p>

<p>Also, I don’t trust any college’s percentages when it comes to med school admissions. There are ways in which a college can discourage students who are unlikely to be successful from applying to medical school at all. The extent to which particular colleges do this varies, and this factor can have a major impact on admissions rates.</p>

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<p>One of the limitations of the Internet is that you can’t hear people’s tone of voice. I can’t tell whether you’re being straightforward or sarcastic here.</p>

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<p>Yes, really. All of the LAC here offer nursing (BSN’s) and many have some form of animal science/pre-vet program. Materials science, yes, many do. Several have pre-architecture programs or as a few people I know, developed their own Architecture majors and are senior partners at major firms now so it wasn’t a problem. One of the largest majors at my alma matter was nursing. Again, I don’t know where you get your information but you are misinformed.</p>

<p>As for the med school acceptance percentages, so what. If the college doesn’t think they will be successful in med school, it’s a pretty good indication you SHOULDN’T attend. They have then done their job, I think. We have run across one state school that doesn’t screen med school applicants so I am comparing apples to apples when talking about acceptance rates.</p>

<p>I was not being sarcastic, your post inferred that you think everyone that goes to a LAC gets a degree in Liberal Arts.</p>

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<p>Actually, there are LAC’s that have nursing and animal science programs.</p>

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<p>It’s a sweeping generalization to say it’s far easier to graduate in 4 years from a LAC than a public U. My daughter and several of her friends at big state U’s will be graduating in less than 4 years, partly because of all the AP credits she was given. In my observation, the private colleges are less generous with the AP and transfer credits, perhaps because they want 4 years or the high tuition from each student? The big U’s with big enrollments have a strong incentive to get the students through the system faster.</p>

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<p>tptshorty-there has been study after study and thread after thread on that topic here and your experience is not the norm and that grad rates for students right out of high school at large universities are worse than LAC for the same subset and when you are talking about averages, of course they are generalizations and because they are averages and not absolutes, there will be outliers that don’t meet the norm.</p>

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<p>I’m sure this is going to turn into another LAC vs. uni thread, of which there are many.</p>

<p>My kids spent many years at an elite private school, but finished high school at a large urban public magnet. At the elite private school, where the median SATs were about 1330 (on a 1600-scale) and the students were hypersophisticated, LACs were enormously popular, and half the class went there. The public school sent about 1-2% of its students to LACs (mostly, but not entirely, kids who were demographically similar to the private school kids). However, the guidance counselors, teachers, and administrators at the public school sent almost all of their children to LACs.</p>

<p>In the perpetual uni-LAC war, I have always been a uni guy, and that’s what my kids chose, too (although one gave herself an LAC safety in case she changed her mind in the spring). But I will say this: Three children of our closest friends are either seniors or recent grads of LACs, and these kids are coming about as close as one could ever hope to accomplishing 100% of their pre-college dreams. The outcomes for these kids, who have totally different interests, are just outstanding, and much better than I would have thought possible. I can’t give too many details without hitting TMI, but the graduate has a permanent job in an ultradesirable industry where there are hundreds of applicants for any job that comes open, one of the seniors has a well-paid internship with her dream employer (extremely competitive to get) in a hyper-technical field where she thought going to the LAC would make her uncompetitive, and the other has had brilliant academic success with professors falling all over one another to help her with fellowships and grad school applications. These are all well-regarded LACs, but only one is top-5.</p>

<p>I know for a fact that these kids sacrificed something in sophistication and depth of course offerings in opting for their LACs, but the colleges have absolutely delivered on the countervailing advantages of close community and rock-solid educational foundations. My uni kids are perfectly happy with their educational outcomes, too, and aren’t second-guessing their own choices, but if you looked at our whole cohort of friends and their kids who are now 20-25, you would think that LACs (at least LACs of a certain quality level) were a pretty good idea.</p>

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<p>Since Carleton is talked about here so much as being one of the top LAC–here is a list of their “limited” majors:</p>

<p>Majors</p>

<p>African/African American Studies
American Studies
Art History (see also: Studio Art)
Asian Studies
Biology
Chemistry
Cinema and Media Studies
Classical Languages
Classical Studies
Computer Science
Dance (available by petition)
Economics
English
Environmental Studies
French
French and Francophone Studies
Geology
German
Greek
History
Latin
Latin American Studies
Linguistics
Mathematics (two tracks: Mathematics and Mathematics/Statistics)
Music
Philosophy
Physics and Astronomy
Political Science (two tracks: Political Science and Political Science/International Relations)
Psychology
Religion
Romance Languages (available by petition)
Russian
Sociology and Anthropology
Spanish
Studio Art
Theater Arts
Women’s and Gender Studies
Concentrations</p>

<p>African/African American Studies
Archaeology
Biochemistry
Cognitive Science
Cross-Cultural Studies
East Asian Studies
Educational Studies
European Studies
French and Francophone Studies
Latin American Studies
Medieval and Renaissance Studies
Neuroscience
Political Economy
South Asian Studies
Women’s and Gender Studies
Special Programs</p>

<p>Additional Courses of Study</p>

<p>Although no major or concentration is currently offered in these subjects, Carleton offers programs or courses of study in:</p>

<p>Arabic
Hebrew
Interdisciplinary Studies
Judaic Studies
Literary and Cultural Studies
Physical Education, Athletics, and Recreation</p>

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<p>There is a general misconception of what the liberal arts includes. Liberal arts does not mean just philosophy and literature. It also includes math, physics, biology, astronomy, chemistry, etc. and these days computer science. It does not generally include nursing, accounting, architecture, animal husbandry, etc. Students interested in those latter programs should concentrate on universities which offer them. A relatively small number of LACs offer engineering.</p>

<p>As for Iowa (or any other state) it all depends on what we are comparing. Incoming freshman at Grinnell College, for example, have significantly higher SAT and ACT scores than at the University of Iowa. The midrange for critical reading on the SAT at Grinnell is 600-720, while at the University of Iowa it is 450-630. For the ACT, the midrange at Grinnell is 28-32, versus 23-28 at the Univerisity of Iowa. By both measures, it appears that the student at the 75% percentile of those entering the University of Iowa has scores similar to student at the 25% percentile of those entering Grinnell.</p>

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<p>^ Checked the college data set. Grad rate at state flagship on son’s list is 44%. The top LAC he is considering is 82%. So, in our case, the numbers do bear out what SteveMA is saying.</p>

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<p>Actually, nursing is not uncommon at LACs and at least 2 of the schools that cbug has considered offer a nursing degree.</p>

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<p>cbug–what is ultimately important is (and I’m sure you know this) is that your S really spend some time getting to know the flagship and the LACs. Which has the best offerings for him? Which setting is best for him? What is best for your family financially? Digging deep and getting into the college search process will most likely sway him in a direction that has nothing to do with the prevailing viewpoint at his high school. (I would hope, anyway.)</p>

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<p>My S’s LAC had a team that was in the top ten at Putnam competition, the most competitive math competition in the country. I don’t know what they were “sacrificing” by attending.</p>

<p>I went to a uni, took graduate courses as an undergraduate, liked dating grad students, and overall liked the action. </p>

<p>Both of my kids learned toward LAC’s. One attended a LAC affiliated with a uni; the other attended a LAC. The one at the LAC/uni did not have a broader education than the other child. If anything, I would say the LAC kid’s education was broader because it stressed real out of the box, interdepartmental thinking. He also had a lock on being in plays, in the orchestra, in the chorus and well-known in the environmental club. He turned down two very prestigious unis to attend his LAC.</p>

<p>I probably wouldn’t have made that decision, but I can’t see how he suffered.</p>

<p>Caveat: No matter what majors one can find at selected LAC’s it’s obvious that uni’s have more majors. And even if a LAC does offer nursing, what if one wants to change at that point? Few offer business degrees (some uni’s don’t either.)</p>

<p>OTOH some major are better at specialty colleges. If I wanted to be a web designer I wouldn’t go to a uni or a LAC, but I would probably go to a technically oriented art school.</p>

<p>I don’t think this has to be a war.</p>

<p>My shy son chose his LAC for temperamental reasons. My daughter benefited from having a uni connected to her LAC and had a wonderful education.</p>

<p>I have seen many posters decide a small, research-university is best, and I just don’t see why.</p>

<p>I went to a fairly lackluster state u for complicated personal reasons, but it was one of three places really political at the time, and one of two places where Derrida was being translated and taught. Those two criteria that have been very important to me personally and professionally intersected only at my school, but it was just dumb luck that I ended up there. Still, it has made my life, and it was ten minutes away from the town I live in that is on the water, with a ferry, and if I squint I can see ocean from my house, something that always makes me happy.</p>

<p>So I would not reject the local state u either.</p>

<p>OP: Is the town Amherst?</p>