Drunk on the LAC Kool-Aid!

Parents Forum
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<p>We live in North Carolina. The vast majority …even the smartest ones… attend one of the universities in the UNC system…not because they have to but because they want to…even those from well-to-do families (that we know) who could pay full freight at privates.</p>

<p>The Vals of both my kids h.s. classes chose state schools. Nine of the top ten students in S1’s class (including S1) all chose NC public universities. The one who didn’t went to Columbia.</p>

<p>Here in NC, state schools are not the last resort they are more often the first choice.</p>

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<p>I am a college professor. I didn’t send my kids to a LAC. They each chose a LAC Didn’t even ask my advice. Haha. But I think it might be cheating to call Barnard a LAC. I would have supported any chose of theirs. I did think more of Barnard/Columbia/Morningside Heights than NYU/downtown, but if money had worked out I would not have been insistent. I would have been very happy with the unis on their lists or even the local uni, Stony Brook, where I got a great, if unglamorous, education, good enough to be admitted to Ivy PHD. It was their choice, not mine.</p>

<p>So, Our results support your survey, but I didn’t “send” them.</p>

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<p>Good point, mythmom!</p>

<p>I actually have nothing against LACs or Unis. I find fascinating that people cannot say there are both good and bad universities, and good and bad LACs. </p>

<p>The ad hominen comments about “all LACs (or all Unis) are always better for everything” and the like are absurd.</p>

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<p>And xiggi, I know some professors’ kids go to LAC. I don’t need to meet them. I have met hundreds of professors (in grad school and as a professor) and the academics’ kids I know attend universities, not LACs. I find the study fascinating not because I think it’s false (it seems like a serious study), but because I wonder why as a professor in the social sciences, I haven’t met one colleague with kids in a LAC. I think it might be different in New England. In the midwest, where I live, for many students their top choices are either places like WashU or UChicago or universities in the big 12.</p>

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<p>Cbug - I agree with the others above: the perception of LACs being better than state schools is regional. In our neck of the woods state schools are perceived to be the best unless you are talking about a name brand private (Stanford, USC, Ivy league). There are so many more LACs in the midwest and northeast I suspect the perception is quite different.</p>

<p>Both my kids have/are going the LAC route. Their schools have zero name recognition in CA. The schools just appealed to them and were a good match for their skills and interests. Whatever floats your boat…there are fantastic opportunities available no matter the type of college/ Uni.</p>

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<p>Salander, my point was not a contradiction to yours! </p>

<p>You have the examples suggested by PackMom. The story is probably identical in Texas, where attending UT-Austin or TAMU might be seen as the pinnacle for an overwhelming percentage of the population, as well as employers. Of course, in NC the Blue Devils might have something to say about the smartest kids picking UNC. And if NC has its share of LACs such as Davidson, the same cannot be said for Texas, with the notable exception of Southwestern and Trinity (when considered a LAC by some.) </p>

<p>LACs represent a very small element of higher education, and it is obvious that the children of professors do attend universities (public and private) to a much larger degree. Just as the percentage of the overall population would. </p>

<p>I guess that some might find this more unusual for faculty members.</p>

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<p>I am sorry if I misunderstood. You make a very good point.</p>

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<p>emeraldkity4–My cousin graduated from the same LAC that I did in the mid-70’s and even back then they had pre-professional degrees, nursing programs, etc. It’s not new. Why would you think that?</p>

<p>entomom-read the requirements for the MCAT starting in 2015–it is very liberal arts based with classes like psychology required now.</p>

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<p>rhumbob–there are very few, maybe one in each state, state schools in the midwest that comes close to comparing to the LAC’s so you are right about that.</p>

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<p>On the “hive of activity” topic: The number and breadth of opportunities at larger universities seems to be a basic fact. Whether or not that is best for any given kid is not something that can be answered without said kid in front of you, however. The discussions about value and opportunity seem to often center on a fantasy kid who is a totally rational maximizer on all fronts. I have one kid who more closely resembles this model and seems to know what he wants and knows how to get it. He will walk into anyone’s office, call anyone on the phone, ask the right questions and make arrangements with people. He pulls strings and could sell ice to the Eskimo whether they need it or not. He was born advocating for himself. He is the mythical “bloom where planted” kid. Not every kid is like that, though. Some need fewer choice, fewer voices and more guidance to find their direction. I also have a kid who did not check the “switchboard operator” box in the work study form because she does not like to talk to people on the phone. :slight_smile: The good thing is, she knows that about herself and has sought out an environment that will stretch her boundaries and provide many opportunities, but with a homier touch.</p>

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<p>Say what?</p>

<p>Middle 50% ACT scores, Iowa research universities:
University of Iowa 23-28
Iowa State 22-28</p>

<p>Middle 50% ACT scores, Iowa LACs:
Grinnell 28-32
Luther 24-29
Cornell College 24-29
Coe College 23-28</p>

<p>Sure, you can find some lower, but then you can also find public universities in Iowa that are lower.</p>

<p>And here in neighboring Minnesota, you’re more likely to hear complaints about “intellectual snobbiness, sex, drugs, drinking, etc.” in connection with Carleton and Macalester than with our state flagship (not that the flagship doesn’t have sex, drugs, drinking, etc., but because it takes place in the middle of a major urban center, it stands out less).</p>

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<p>Sex, drugs, drinking, etc. is always less tolerable when it comes with a heaping side of intellectual snobbiness.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>You have found the only 3 LACs in Iowa with better stats than UIowa.Iowa has 20 LACs. Almost all ARE below the academic level of the flagships. Iowa only has one other public university and it is lower than U Iowa and ISU, that is why I compared them to flagships.</p>

<p>I grew up in a small town. If you go to Iowa…you are just a number, you are in the Peoples Republic of Johnson County, etc. If you go to Buena Vista…great school, congratulations. Obviously, this s not always the case but it is prevalent in rural Iowa especially if neither parent attended a flagship.</p>

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<p>I’m with mythmom. I’m a professor and my D1 attends a leading LAC, but that’s her choice, not mine. But I’m fully supportive; I think she chose well. I’d guess that among my colleagues whose kids went to college (and where I know which college they chose), perhaps 30 to 35% chose LACs—a minority, to be sure, but a far higher proportion than the population at large. </p>

<p>D2 is now a rising HS senior, also looking mainly at LACs at the top of her list. DW and I, both alums of the University of Michigan as undergrads and of major private universities at the graduate level, always said we owed it to our kids to give them an opportunity for an undergraduate education as good as our own, which was a mighty fine one, in my opinion. It’s a little awkward that our state flagship is in many ways not as good as Michigan (though it’s quite strong in some areas, e.g., business and engineering), but it’s comforting that as Minnesota residents we can also send our kids to the University of Wisconsin at in-state rates. Close enough, perhaps, in a pinch, but our daughters have had different ideas. I’m satisfied that D1’s LAC, Haverford, easily passes the “as good as Michigan” bar, and for her it really is a better fit. </p>

<p>Now we just need to get D2 to a comparable level. Wisconsin should be a safety for her, but she’s also planning to apply to Michigan where she should have a pretty good shot, on the theory that if she’s going to end up at a big state school, she much prefers Michigan to either Wisconsin or Minnesota. To which
I say, Go Blue! Beyond that she’s looking exclusively at LACs, and in my judgment all the schools on her current list pass the quality bar. Of course, I wouldn’t be unhappy if she ended up at Michigan, and I wouldn’t even be too disappointed if she ended up at Wisconsin, but I think, like her sister, she’d be happier and more engaged at a LAC, and consequently she’d get more out of it. It’s a question of personal preferences. I think I’d have gone a little stir-crazy at a school as small as Haverford, but the academics really are top-notch and for some people the personal attention you get at a school like that makes all the difference.</p>

<p>Bottom line, I don’t see this as an “all Xs are better” kind of question. Some LACs are outstanding, some are not. Some private research universities are outstanding, some not. Some public research universities are outstanding, some not. And some people are just LAC people and will get more out of that environment, while others are big university people and will get more out of that, and still others think they find the sweet spot with a moderate-sized private university that has some LAC-like qualities and some research university-like qualities, while some think that compromise incorporates the worst of both. But hey, isn’t it a wonderful world in which there are so many choices, and such differences among us?</p>

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<p>I love what bclintonk has to say. And can we not all agree that “the prevailing viewpoint at [any given] local high school,” to paraphrase from cbug’s original post, amounts to little more than the opinion of (to be kind) inexperienced and (to be a little more harsh) ill-informed teenagers? There is no one right answer, even for those of us whose kids chose a school thinking it the best (if not the only) choice. They’ll all figure out what they want or think they want … And learn to love their choices even if their reasons for choosing were not 100 percent rational.</p>

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<p>At my high school in suburban OR, about 10 kids are going to Ivies, 20-30 are going to top 50 universities, about 15 are going to selective LACs, and the rest are going to Pacific Northwest schools (the majority of which are going to OSU or UO). The sheer amount of kids going to these in-state schools has earned them the reputation as the places where the partier and slacker types go which, in turn, turns many more academically inclined kids off of them. However, in reality, there are a lot of intelligent kids who attend solely for financial reasons, but these schools’ reputation as the “fallback” or " second choice" university remains.</p>

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<p>I think a point that is also being overlooked, especially here in California, which still has a reputation of being one of the finest state university systems in the nation, is that thanks to the economic mess that is California right now, things have changed - a lot. One of our main reasons for seeking out LACs for D was because of the severe budget cuts that are affecting every part of California education from elementary school through the universities. Horror stories of freshman not being able to find any classes they need are becoming more and more common. </p>

<p>It was a definite consideration for us in deciding between our state’s university system (which has a world class reputation) and the small LAC that D eventually opted for.</p>

<p>In all honesty we always assumed D would attend one of the UC’s. Both H and I and all my other children attended UCs and for years the discussions about baby D’s college choice always centered around which UC D would attend - not if. And of course all of us were pushing for our own alma maters. :)</p>

<p>But due to a combination of circumstances, including the economic concerns facing the UC system aloing with a generous college fund available to D and her stellar academic record, we were able to explore a world that we had never really explored before. Quite honestly I really didn’t have a clue what a LAC really was until we started looking for colleges and suddenly there was this whole new quite interesting and different world of college experiences out there that just seemed to fit our D so much better.</p>

<p>I understand the state university conversation because honestly that is how I have always felt about our UCs. For my whole life until just recently, I really couldn’t understand why anyone would spend thousands of dollars more than necessary to go college when there was such an excellent state university available. Now I am just thankful D has the opportunity to attend a school where the average class size is 16 students and her professors will know her name and she will be able to get the classes she needs.</p>

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<p>My cousin graduated from the same LAC that I did in the mid-70’s and even back then they had pre-professional degrees, nursing programs, etc. It’s not new. Why would you think that?</p>

<p>I wasn’t referring to the professional programs that operate in conjunction with a university.</p>

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<p>Haven’t read the whole thread, so apologies if this is redundant or off topic, but IMO, it is more about the size of the school than whether its a LAC or University. Many can get the “feel” of a LAC at a smaller U. They can get individual attention from faculty, small classes, etc. They may benefit from the availability of grad programs with perhaps more research opportunities available, but that is available at LACs as well. My S#1 attended a university that was about the size of my LAC. To me it “felt” like a LAC , except that it had Div 1 sports. Waste of $$, IMO, but thats a topic for another thread.</p>