<p>Cur~</p>
<p>Enough of the sesquipedalian ramblings…give us the short version! ;)</p>
<p>~b.</p>
<p>It’s ok guys 
Just an internet forum…after all in real life you don’t have access to what has been said before :)</p>
<p>Cur: from someone who did not read or contribute?? hmmmmm. 
</p>
<p>Another short version could be: The issue is not black and white. Or is it?</p>
<p>We’re checking to see where it went. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Didn’t say I didn’t read. 
(Although I did imply it.) Said I didn’t post. (Not once . Really.) Waaaaay too much like work for me. ;)</p>
<p>POST #11596:</p>
<p>Today, 09:18 AM #11596
originaloog
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<p>60 Minutes Last Night
EDIT INSERTED BY COLLEGEMOM:
I HAVE JUST MERGED AT 12:10 PM TODAY A THREAD STARTED BY ORIGINALOOG TODAY AT 9:18 AM ON THE TOPIC OF “60 MINUTES LAST NIGHT” AS IT PERTAINS TO THE DUKE LACROSSE CASE AND WE ALREADY HAVE A THREAD ON THE CASE WHICH ALSO IS DISCUSSING THE 60 MINUTES TELECAST. PLEASE NOTE, HOWEVER, THAT THE RESPONSES TO ORIGINALOOG’S THREAD ARE NOW INSERTED IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER IN THIS THREAD, INTERSPERSED WITH DISCUSSION/RESPONSES ALREADY EXISTING. SO, TO FOLLOW THE DISCUSSION, THE FOLLOWING POSTS WERE RESPONSES TO ORIGINALOOG’S THREAD HERE THAT WAS JUST NOW MERGED WITH THE EXISTING DUKE LAX THREAD:</p>
<p>Momof3sons’ post at 9:20 AM
Oldfort’s posts at 9:29 AM
Tarhunt’s post at 10:43 AM
Barbar’s post at 11:40 AM</p>
<p>Lets forego any discussion of Pres Bush’s interview to another thread. I am interested about any of your thoughts about the Duke lacrosse parents segment. Clearly, based on the “evidence” aired last nite, DA Nifong should be disbarred at best and perhaps charged with felony obstruction. A civil suit seem certain as well unless public officials are shielded from such lawsuits.</p>
<p>And what was the DNA lab thinking? Any bets that the parents will not be bringing a huge civil suit against it? I suspect that they will own it in a few years.</p>
<p>I was happy to hear Finerty’s dad acknowledge the players’ mistake in inviting the strippers to their party but disagreed with his contention that many other students engage in such activity, though he may have been talking about only underaged drinking. In my many years in academe I have never seen any first hand evidence of strippers attending any student party and suspect the practice is relatively rare.</p>
<p>I was struck by the seeming sympathy some of the parents showed toward the accuser and in the view of at least one parent, considered her yet another victim of the DA’s malfeasance.</p>
<p>And finally what do you make of the statement concluding the interview where Finerty’s mom stated that Nifong will be paying for his actions for many years?</p>
<p>And yes, I never thought about the google consequences until last nite. That fateful evening will stay with all parties implicated for a long time. And it seems that Finerty and Seligman will not be taking Duke up on its offer for reinstatement. There is a lot of parental disgust with Duke’s handling of the matter too, though I think most universities would have acted in a similar fashion.
Last edited by CollegeMom : Today at 12:17 PM.</p>
<p>Today, 09:20 AM #11597
momof3sons
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<p>Hi originaloog,
You have some great thoughts here, and the segment is already being discussed on the “massive” thread. Can you copy and paste your words here into that discussion? I’m not so technically savvy so I don’t know what’s possible or if you want to do it, obviously.</p>
<p>Today, 09:27 AM #11598
StickerShock
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<p>babar: I couldn’t disagree more. I think the families were remarkably poised & able to keep a lid on their anger. The interview helped create a very human connection between them & the viewer.</p>
<p>Quote:
But the contrast between the haves and have-nots is still startling.
This statement baffles me. Why is it at all relevant? It would be so sad if class envy has reached such a problematic level that we all can’t emphasize with these persecuted families. Nifong & the accuser should not get a pass because their socio-economic status is lower than the victimized boys.</p>
<p>Anyway, I didn’t see anything in the interview that indicated their wealth (if they have any left after this mess.) Casual dress much like what I’m now wearing at the keyboard as I sit at my home computer in my modest home. (Although I’m wearing sneakers. If Leslie Stahl were interviewing me, I’d change my shoes & put on some lipstick.) They were all well-spoken; But that’s not an indicator of wealth.</p>
<p>Today, 09:29 AM #11599
oldfort
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<p>I don’t believe Duke acted inappropriately. Under age drinking happens at every campus, but having strippers at a party is over the top. I did not hear any parents say it was wrong. Duke should have expelled those students for having strippers there, never mind other things they were accused of. That being said, the DA should be disbarred for what he did. He used those people for his own agenda. Looking at those parents, you know they have the resource to make sure Nifong will be paying for the rest of his life. Over all, it’s a sad situation - it shows our legal system at its worst, entitlement(disregard for rules) of those athletes, and many privilege youngster, have in our country, and how some parents will not take ownership for their children’s mistakes.</p>
<p>CollegeMom,
I, too, will fall on my sword while wearing my Freudian slip, for 'twas I who suggested to originaloog that the comments from the 60 Minutes thread be merged into the original gigantic thread. zzzzzzzzztttttttt-Sound of slip tearing.</p>
<p>Today, 09:31 AM #11600
latetoschool
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<p>I do have to say that I found the attitude and demeanor of the parents somewhat off-putting. Now, all along I have posted that I have not believed a rape happened, or that the AV is credible, and especially that her story just simply does not fit what a sincerely struggling single mother would tend to do along the road to pulling the family out of poverty: beginning with post #600-ish or so, I disbelieved it from the start.</p>
<p>But I was troubled by the parents last night - perhaps it was the way the interview was edited; to me, they seemed incredibly uncurious about the fact that this type of commerce is a profit center in Durham and other places; while Mrs. Evans paid some lip service to the AV being used by men, there didn’t seem to be any concern that their sons - or the collective group of sons - were perfectly willing to pay women to degrade themselves. They also seemed unconcerned or interested in how or why women sought to hire themselves out for this sort of “work”.</p>
<p>Sure, Mr. Evans said “it’s immoral” or whatever, but, his comment seemed dismissive. Mrs. Seligmann said that parents of sons everywhere should be very, very afraid, but, where is her concern that young men be guided to not demean and degrade young women? I came away making a mental note to remind my daughter to be “very, very afraid” of young men who thinks this sort of thing is o.k., or at least no worse than, say, letting the parking meter expire.</p>
<p>In addition, Mr. Collins said he couldn’t see sending his son back to school in an environment where Nifong is DA and controls the police force, but, where is the thinking from him or the other parents - where is the outrage that should say “where is Nifong’s vice squad? where is the law enforcement that permits open prostitution? where are the police when the AV can return to work as a stripper within two weeks of supposedly being raped? why isn’t the vice squad shutting down these types of operations?” and so on…</p>
<p>Last, I was struck by Mr. Seligmann’s characterization of the verbal attacks he suffered “in a court of law”. Did he really imagine that courtrooms are gentile, classy places where all verbal exchanges are erudite and illuminating? What did he imagine happens in the average U.S. courtroom? Who does he think frequents these places?</p>
<p>All in all, what 60 minutes aired - who knows what landed on the floor after editing cuts - sort of got me to having more sympathy for the AV and for young women like her, and being rather turned off by the parents’ apparent lack of concern, interest or concept of an environment where commerce like this thrives.</p>
<p>I do totally, completely understand that their sons are charged with very serious felonies. I still do not think they did what they are charged with doing. I have been 100% in their corner all along - until last night. The parents demeanor and personal presentation really set me back a bit.</p>
<p>Today, 10:24 AM #11601
SuNa
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<p>The parents exhibited some of the naivete that is characteristic of Americans who really believe that bad things cannot happen to them. Our legal system is set up so that DA’s are elected by popular vote. That can lead to corruption. Duke is located in a Southern city in which town-gown relationships are not good. There are racial problems in Durham. Because of past behavior, the lacrosse team is not well regarded. So, white boys, hiring two black strippers for an alcohol and drug-fueled evening of sexual teasing is not a smart thing to do.</p>
<p>These unfortunate men have provided a good lesson for the rest of us. As far as their lives being ruined, however, I doubt that many of us will remember their names in five years time. And I think sympathy for their plights might help open some doors for them.</p>
<p>Today, 10:42 AM #11602
latetoschool
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<p>Well, I guess. On the whole of it though, the concept of a young woman - regardless of race - that has two children, now a third that was clearly conceived merely weeks following what has been represented as a brutal gang-rape, and a DNA snapshot evidences sexual activity of FOUR different men, that’s spectacularly horrifying, once all added together. That tells me there is something far more seriously wrong in play…sure, the men in her life used her, Nifong used her, her so called “employer” uses her; even advocacy groups of her own race did use her and are continuing to use her, and, what these parents didn’t seem to care very much about is the fact that their sons - or rather the collective group of sons - happily used her, as well. I guess the only difference is that they almost certainly paid her more.</p>
<p>It just really bothers me that it didn’t seem to bother the parents. I sure would not want any combination of them as in laws. Not based on what I saw last night.</p>
<p>But, who knows what ended up on the floor of the editing room. I guess that just because 60 minutes represented it in this way doesn’t make it fact…</p>
<p>Today, 10:43 AM #11603
Tarhunt
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<p>I didn’t see the whole interview, but it appeared to me that the interviewer was lobbing up some pretty softball questions to the parents.</p>
<p>Many people are wrongly imprisoned in this country because they became targets and had inadequate funds for good representation. DNA evidence that has freed some of them has been a real eye opener for just how prevalent this practice is. It should never happen to anyone, be they wealthy kids from Duke or impoverished kids from South Chicago.</p>
<p>One thing about this case that really bothers me is that the rape charge has overshadowed all the other bad behavior on the part of this lacrosse team. I would have kicked them off the team for this behavior, alone.</p>
<p>For instance, it appears from what I’ve read that they did the following things:</p>
<ol>
<li>Underage drinking sponsored by legal adults</li>
<li>Hiring strippers</li>
<li>Threatening strippers with rape by broomstick</li>
<li>Verbally assaulting strippers because they were not of the “right” races</li>
<li>Shouting racist epithets outdoors where the neighbors could hear them</li>
</ol>
<p>That would be enough for me to cancel the season and kick these boys off the team.</p>
<p>Today, 10:49 AM #11604
soozievt
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<p>Latetoschool…I just don’t think this segment could cover all that you bring up. They also had to answer the questions being posed to them which truly were dealing with the legal case before them. I don’t think you really know what they think of the issues you just brought up unless there were questions and discussion of those topics led by the interviewer and if there were time.</p>
<p>As well, I think the one time that did touch on this a bit is when Mr. Seligman acknowledged that the boys used poor judgement as far as morally, but that none of that warrants a felony prosecution. I agree. I think right now, they were dealing with the legal case, a very very serious one. But that doesn’t mean that they or anyone else doesn’t think that addressing team behavior, or individual behavior or responsibility and judgement need not also be addressed.</p>
<p>As far as underage drinking on a college campus over a spring break…yes, it is not so great but truly is very very common. The punishment needs to fit the “crime”.</p>
<p>As far as hiring strippers…I personally find that very distasteful, though not illegal. Until this case broke, I had no idea that it was common at some of these campuses according to articles. Apparently they are not the only group at Duke to hire strippers. I had no idea this was something college kids do. I can’t imagine my kids ever at such a party, nor have I heard of such parties where they are at. Drinking, yes. Strippers, no. I don’t know what those parents think of hiring strippers. I am sure that no matter what they thought before, they surely would guide their sons now to never put themselves in such a situation ever again. I recall the interview Reade had with the prior 60 Minutes show in which he says that the mistake he made was ever attending the party. I doubt anyone who held such a party ever imagined in their wildest dreams that such an outcome was possible. I’m sure this has affected their decision making for the future. It sure was a learning opportunity. However, I don’t think any of these midjudgements warranted the repercussions they are now facing.</p>
<p>I think the issue you bring up with the police and the prostitutes and what not is an issue in itself and I don’t think that this short piece was able to address all that. I think the families had to address the agenda brought up by Ms. Stahl. I think Mrs. Evans did well to at least mention that this woman came from a very troubled background.</p>
<p>It is easy to blame men who hire strippers, etc. and it is quite distasteful to me…but it is also an issue on the women’s end who choose such a profession, as well. It is not so moral on either end. Yes, it is demeaning to women. In this instance, these women are choosing to partake in that, which is really too bad. There are a lot of forces in their life that have led to such poor choices, and not just the men who hire them. In any case, I don’t think you truly know what these parents think of their son’s choices to have a drinking party with strippers. The interview and the energy at the current time is on these serious charges legally. I venture to bet that if the boys were just in hot water at school over discipline issues, which might have been a normal consequence for these behaviors, they may have been very critical of their sons for engaging in the behaviors or getting in trouble at school, etc. Right now, it has gone FAR beyond those issues. I only wish they were just dealing with THOSE issues but they are dealing with way more issues of a far more serious nature, which I do not believe they brought on themselves. The drinking and hiring of strippers…they did bring on themselves and should have those behaviors dealt with in the more normal disciplinary way. The rest has taken on their full attention for the moment. I can’t blame them for the time being. And surely that was all that Ms. Stahl was ALSO addressing. She did not ask questions on the hiring of strippers or the underage drinking, etc. She drove the interview.</p>
<p>Today, 10:58 AM #11605
digmedia
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<p>I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but this occurs to me: Since the DNA of 4 or 5 males was found in the victim’s underwear and rectum, there seems to be a very high probability of that a rape did occur, although obviously not by any of the members of the Lacrosse team.</p>
<p>If this is true, then - as one of the parents noted - the victim has been severely mistreated by the system, led by Nifong himself. By concentrating ONLY on the Lacrosse team, ONLY showing team members in the photo lineup, and IGNORING all other evidence which leads to other potential rapists, Nifon has mistreated not only the victim, but the public as well.</p>
<p>Today, 11:00 AM #11606
soozievt
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<p>Quote:
As far as their lives being ruined, however, I doubt that many of us will remember their names in five years time. And I think sympathy for their plights might help open some doors for them.
I believe at the present time, these boys’ lives are in a very bad place and they have paid serious consequences. I think it will get better for them with time but I feel their lives are FOREVER tarnished. However, I am hoping that due to the publicity which right now is more in their favor, that some doors might open again for them by those who are sympathetic as to what these guys have had to unfairly endure.</p>
<p>LatetoSchool…I have to say that this young woman’s choices and behaviors are quite disturbing, particularly as she is raising children alone. I know that her culture and background are foreign from my own experience, but I have wondered the entire time…where are her parents in all this? I just cannot understand some of it. I realize she is an adult and not under their wing, but right now, she is in a seriously difficult situation and I can’t imagine relatives not aiding her in some way, though I don’t know what efforts they have made and also she has to be succeptible to them. But it seemed like her dad was in her life even the night she went to do this job. Who is helping these children of hers? It is most disturbing and I really wonder where her parents are in all this, both before the incident and after. Who does this young woman have guiding or helping or supporting her? There is failure in her background. I surely hope that with her case given so much attention, that both she and her young children are under the watchful eye of SOMEONE, at least social services.</p>
<p>Today, 11:03 AM #11607
DukeEgr93
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<p>I think Mr. Evans did a good job of trying to make clear the huge gap between the party itself and the allegations of rape, sexual assault, and kidnapping that the three men faced at first. The other side of this coin was early on - when there was much conversation about if only the accuser had not been an exotic dancer and put herself in that position, etc. Decades of work have gone into making sure people get that the latter is not an excuse for rape EVER; hopefully some will now go into the thought that hosting or being out a load party with beer and strippers is not an excuse to be falsely accused of rape ever, either.</p>
<p>Today, 11:07 AM #11608
soozievt
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<p>Digi, I don’t know that that evidence implies that a rape occurred by other men necessarily. From reports early on…the young woman had called on some customers earlier that day and in the preceding days to “dance” or “perform”. It appeared that some of her “jobs” might include sex acts. As well, she had a boyfriend. The fact that in the rape exam, there was evidence of sex was quite plausible and in fact, all along, didn’t shout “rape” to me by the LAX players but simply that she had had active sex recently. That doesn’t mean she was raped. It appears that she has sex with various “partners”. I don’t know if these are all for pay or just what. This was not just any young woman. I think you have to look at her line of work and her behaviors in the days leading up to this incident. I also believe she had “reason” to lie the night she was discovered by police and was going to be taken to the drunk tank. She has stuff going on in her life and didn’t want to get in trouble as she has kids. She has been in legal trouble before. She was apparently under the influence of something. She may have been engaging in sex for pay (I don’t know that for sure) and is a mother with custody of children. In order to save her butt, it was easier to lie and create a situation that put the blame on others. That is not fact but it is plausible.</p>
<p>Today, 11:16 AM #11609
latetoschool
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<p>S, I have a VERY dim view of government social services of ANY kind. I strongly believe in looking for a helping hand at the end of one’s own arm. Personal experience from age 12 - 17-ish taught me that social service interaction brings about much harm, and little good comes of it. And judging from topical headlines in my home state, things haven’t improved much in the 20 or so years since. Faith based support is probably different, though my experience with it is as a contributor, donator and volunteer, not as a client.</p>
<p>This AV does have one very small thing in her favor - she did somehow manage to make her way to a college, take some classes, and get some decent grades. The rest of it, I just cannot imagine, cannot conceive of, cannot even begin to understand or explain. I don’t think Treasury could print enough money to make me strip for someone else’s entertainment, not even one time, no matter how desperate financial situation might be - and as a single mother to a then-infant who slept in a car for a few days because we were homeless, trust me when I tell you, I do know what desperatation feels like. But even in those circumstances I cannot imagine being even slightly tempted. I would rather starve to death, or die from exposure.</p>
<p>That’s what bothers me about the parents. But, you’re correct in that they responded to the interview they were dealt. Who knows what they think of the rest of it. But if it were me? I would have responded to the interviewer’s questions very, very differently.</p>
<p>Bottom line, the mantle of “victim” is probably very unattractive, regardless of who is wearing it, or why. They may have looked better (to me) if they had responded more along the lines of the bigger questions, and more serious issues in play, and taking personal responsibility. Pretty much, they came across as the AV is a liar and a fraud (which she very likely is that), but, moreso, the way they seemed to regard her in the interview format, she’s not even human, not even a full member of society. She’s just some less-than human “thing”, a breast and vagina package for hire if you will, who failed to please their sons.</p>
<p>Perhaps the 60 minutes interviewer should have framed the interview a little differently. Or perhaps it’s just me.</p>